Thread
Just got a Broken Color Classic! Looking for advice
Hi folks,
I just picked up a dead Color Classic which is cosmetically in nearly 10/10 condition - no yellowing, still has the qucktime sticker, everything! Unfortunatley, it does not turn on. The man I bought it from (who runs a horse farm!) said that it was working perfectly last year, but that it simply doesn't turn on. This suggests to me that most of the parts probably work. When I got it home, plugged it in and flipped the switch, I heard the familiar sound of a CRT transformer starting, but saw and hear nothing else. When I turned it on subsequent times, no sound at all. I am thinking that possibly the power supply needs to be replaced but I am posting in hopes for good advice about how I should proceed and where would I find the correct power supply?
If it comes to a point where the main board doesn't work and such, I'd be more than willing to turn this computer into an upgrade PPC, G3/G4 etc., but since the case is so flawless, I'd rather have a great regular CC if I can.
thank you!
dave
I just picked up a dead Color Classic which is cosmetically in nearly 10/10 condition - no yellowing, still has the qucktime sticker, everything! Unfortunatley, it does not turn on. The man I bought it from (who runs a horse farm!) said that it was working perfectly last year, but that it simply doesn't turn on. This suggests to me that most of the parts probably work. When I got it home, plugged it in and flipped the switch, I heard the familiar sound of a CRT transformer starting, but saw and hear nothing else. When I turned it on subsequent times, no sound at all. I am thinking that possibly the power supply needs to be replaced but I am posting in hopes for good advice about how I should proceed and where would I find the correct power supply?
If it comes to a point where the main board doesn't work and such, I'd be more than willing to turn this computer into an upgrade PPC, G3/G4 etc., but since the case is so flawless, I'd rather have a great regular CC if I can.
thank you!
dave
If you aren't aware already, CCs use "pseudo-soft power". You have to flip the switch, then press the power button on the keyboard to turn them on. The switch alone doesn't power up a CC. I recently bought a CC for $25 from a seller who didn't understand this and passed off the CC as dead because the power switch on the back didn't start it. I feel a little guilty about taking advantage of his ignorance, but on the other hand...
If you still can't get it started, and you don't mind gutting it, then you could swap out the guts and install a new LCD or CRT along with a mini's guts or something similar.
Peace,
Drew
If you still can't get it started, and you don't mind gutting it, then you could swap out the guts and install a new LCD or CRT along with a mini's guts or something similar.
Peace,
Drew
I didn't know! I've only been working with the Classics and SEs, and forgot about that function! But, it still doesn't work. I'm definitely hearing the CRT power on to some degree, so does this mean the power supply is working? Can the power supply be partially working? I'd really rather not gut it if there is just one part bad.
Try this: http://colourclassicfaq.com/
Could be the keyboard, could be the PRAM battery. Does the hard drive spin up? What happens when you insert a floppy?
Could be the keyboard, could be the PRAM battery. Does the hard drive spin up? What happens when you insert a floppy?
No yellowing, eh? Still has a QT sticker! Sounds like an excellent candidate for a Macquarium! Gut that sucker!
Wash the logic board and dry well. You are likely to have capacitor failure.
Not everything is the fault of capacitors! There's other solid advice to follow before resorting to a risky procedure like washing a motherboard...
Checking the PRAM battery is a good one.
Peace,
Drew
The Color Classic uses the very common 3.6V half AA, so you can get these cheaply and just put one in. Before doing that, you might want to set your voltage meter to 10DC, then place the probes on either end of the existing battery to measure the voltage - it will most likely be below 3 volts.
Grrrrr....there's no such thing as a broken Mac! }
No matter what the problem is, it can always be fixed!! The appropriate replacement part can be found!!This is the 68k Mac LIBERATION Army, meaning that we're supposed to help these Macs, not destroy them!
Yeah, this CC is so beautiful that i'll expend any effort to coax it back to life - it will really be in mint condition at that point. I've actually lost interest in my other compacts with the CC around; it really shows them up aesthetically. My local microcenter apparently has the 3.6v half AAs, so as soon as I get a chance I'm going go get some, and hopefully this baby will be fixed!
Any chance that I could be buying incompatible or damaging PRAM batteries? Anything I need to look out for?
Any chance that I could be buying incompatible or damaging PRAM batteries? Anything I need to look out for?
Much of what you will find while you resuscitate your CC has been already dealt with here.
Both alkaline and lithium batteries can be found in the CC/P250. The switch-on degaussing is also dealt with in the referenced threads, as is the drill for powering-up an unused (for some time) CC, and the difference between soft-power (active power-control), pseudo-soft power and passive power-control.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7569&p
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5804&p
May you enjoy your acquisition.
de
Both alkaline and lithium batteries can be found in the CC/P250. The switch-on degaussing is also dealt with in the referenced threads, as is the drill for powering-up an unused (for some time) CC, and the difference between soft-power (active power-control), pseudo-soft power and passive power-control.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7569&p
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5804&p
May you enjoy your acquisition.
de
Relax Apostrophe. Dog Cow is hardly serious. You have to read what he wrote. He's being ironic.Grrrrr....there's no such thing as a broken Mac! }
However, Dog Cow, you should be careful. Someone new to the boards might not understand your subtle humor and actually gut what so obviously describes a collectable in top condition.
One of the things about me is that I tend to take things very literally, and so if this was something I took too literally, then I most certainly apologize.
But still, it really seemed to me (and still does) that Dog Cow was serious. So again, if I'm mistaken I apologize, but Dog Cow, Mac 128's right, and whether or not you were joking, gutting Macs is the exact opposite of what these forums, and us, are all about.
-Apostrophe
Terrible news. I opened the CC, took out the PRAM battery. I tested it and the battery was absolutley dead. I put in a new, known-good battery, closed her up and tried to boot. I still hear the CRT sound when I flip the master switch on the back but then, nothing. The lights on my ADBII kebyoard do not light up, and when I press the power button, nothing.
I'd really appreciate any advice.
I'd really appreciate any advice.
Give the logicboard a wash. Try a different ADB keyboard.
Washing a logic board is an INCREDIBLY RISKY venture. Consider the possibilities: corrosion, electro-static discharge, heat damage, and physical contact damage are possible outcomes! The least likely method to cause damage would be to douse the board in de-ionized, distilled water, but it still carries significant risk. Water may be Ph neutral, but it can still be chemically and electrically active. While it may work well for some people, it should not be advised in a general sense. If the computer in question is one that was produced in large quantities, then there is little to lose by washing a motherboard because replacement parts can be readily found. But in a rarer machine (such as the Color Classic), actual, physical contact with water (or worse, detergent and a dish washing machine!) should only be a choice of absolute last resort.
I would check the logic board for signs of damage. Look for blown fuses, leaking caps, residue left from leaking PRAM batteries, you name it. A thorough visual inspection may reveal signs of physical damage that can be repaired.
Peace,
Drew
I would check the logic board for signs of damage. Look for blown fuses, leaking caps, residue left from leaking PRAM batteries, you name it. A thorough visual inspection may reveal signs of physical damage that can be repaired.
Peace,
Drew
Dozens of members of this forum have washed their logicboards, including me, and had excellent results. Obviously care needs to be taken, but I wouldn't be afraid of doing it at all. I would disagree that the logicboards for Color Classics are rare - spare boards can be found on LEM swap and other places. I even have a CC board coming my way.
Thanks for the help. I did try it with two sets of ADB keyboards and mice, both which I know work with my Classic, SE and SE/30. Why are you guys assuming that it is the logic board and not the analog board? The fan doesn't even start up, although I do hear the CRT trying to start - so I am still wondering if it could be the power supply. How easy is it to get the power supply? There is a working Performa 550 on ebay right now that I am considering for CC parts - does this make any sense? I will inspect the logic board soon for any observable issues, and consider washing it.
thank you
Dave
thank you
Dave
Depends on the sequence of events. Are you hearing the CRT when you flip the back switch or when you press the power key on the keyboard?
If the back switch, this is normal, though the CPU is NOT trying to start up, what you hear is the power surge into the circuits, preparing the components for soft-power up. Nothing else will start up until the CPU starts up, including the fan. Since the logicboard is the conduit for softpower, which turns on the fan, that is why we think that is the problem. The CPU does a check when you press that power key that determines whether the computer can be safely started up. One of the reasons why the PRAM battery must be functional as that is one of the checks. Also, a common problem with the logicboards is leaky capacitors. While it's possible the same problem exists on the PSU, it's more common on the CPU. I've never heard of it on the Power board.
If this is happening after you press the power key, then there may be a problem with the PSU as the trigger is making it to the PSU, but it is unable to complete the power-up cycle.
The 550 parts can be used on the CC PSU, but they cannot be directly swapped due to the size difference. So the 500 does not do you much good unless you know you have a bad PSU part or plan for one down the road and are prepared to work with a soldering iron. Opening the case is easy enough. Just unscrew all of the screws and pull the back off revealing the CRT & PSU.
As for washing the logicboard, it has been pointed out that Apple did the very same thing before putting it into the computer. They wash all of the boards to remove solder flux. They most likely use purified water. You should use no dishwashing soap for sure and do not dry them in the dishwasher. An alcohol dip following the wash cycle will help speed air drying and rinse any hard impurities in the water.
Fantastic, thank you. To clarify, I hear the noise as soon as I switch the master switch on the back of the unit. I hear and see no difference when I press the soft-power key on the keyboard. I guess this means logic board. I will inspect the logic board, and probably post a picture (due to my inexperience) later today.
Okay, I've got the logic board out and apart from a little dust, it looks pretty good. Nothing dubious, unfortunately. There may be a little tarnishing on the big white piece that connects to the rest of the computer. My father is recommending that I use his contact cleaner (metal contacts, not optical) to work on this. I took three pictures, what do you guys think?
http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/8/29/2072047/CClogic1.JPG
http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/8/29/2072047/CClogic2.JPG
http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/8/29/2072047/cclogic3.JPG
http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/8/29/2072047/CClogic1.JPG
http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/8/29/2072047/CClogic2.JPG
http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/8/29/2072047/cclogic3.JPG
He's right about this. But before you get too carried away, may I make some suggested steps to verify what could be dead?
1.) Reseat the Lithium backup battery and press the red button (S1) on the logic board. Don't hold the button in, just press it one time. This button is a reset for the Power Management Unit (PMU). Then try powering up the CC from the keyboard. If this doesn't work, move on to the next step.
2.) Pull the logic board out of the CC. Remove the RAM and the vertical card next to the RAM (I think that's the ROM SIMM or it is a cache card). Put the logic board back into the CC and turn it on. You should hear some kind of tone one time, but the machine won't boot the OS. This is okay; in a way, you're kind of shocking the CC awake. Next, turn the CC off, pull the logic board out, reseat the RAM and the other card, and put everything back together. Now, turn on the CC. You should hear the startup tone and it should boot from here. If you get a startup tone, but no video, you could have a bad logic board, Power Analog Video (PAV) board, CRT or Power Supply Unit (PSU). But if the PSU is bad anyway, nothing will turn on. Oh sure you'll hear something click on, like the flyback transformer, but the voltage measurements could very well be under the needed amounts.
3.) From here, it's hard to say what is bad until you start measuring voltages on the PAV board, PSU and logic board. PAV boards on these type of Macintoshes are quite common for failure after so much use. In fact, I would even consider going as far as to say all of the "All-In-One" Macintoshes with CRTs are at risk. Another problem on the PAV board might be that there are cold solder joints or "cracks". You can try taking a soldering iron and touch up the solder a bit on the entire board. While you're at it, check for bad capacitors, flyback transformer and anything that looks burnt, like fuses or burn marks on the board.
4.) If you don't want to muck around with a soldering iron, I would suggest replacing the whole board. These aren't hard to find; look online here or eBay or other resources for refurbished parts.
Try the above steps and get back to us on your results. Good luck.
73s de Phreakout.
Note that you have a 68882 in thet thar logic board.
Not so easy to find one of those.
Not so easy to find one of those.
Bad news: I removed the two RAM sticks, and the bigger stick, which it says is the VRAM SIMM. I pressed the red reset button. I also cleaned the contacts to the rest of the computer, and still nothing.
Is the 68882 the optional co-processor? Very interesting. I'd swap it in a second for a working logic board.
I will wash the logic board later this week, but again I am wondering if the PSU is shot and not supplying enough voltage anywhere else. How standard are these power supplies and how easy are they to find?
Also, I am not seeing any CC logic boards on eBay, where else can I look?
Is the 68882 the optional co-processor? Very interesting. I'd swap it in a second for a working logic board.
I will wash the logic board later this week, but again I am wondering if the PSU is shot and not supplying enough voltage anywhere else. How standard are these power supplies and how easy are they to find?
Also, I am not seeing any CC logic boards on eBay, where else can I look?
The power supply and analog board are all one self-contained unit, which is unique to the Colour Classic and Colour Classic II. Unfortunately most, if not all of them are pretty much on their way out, meaning that these days, repair is most likely a better option than replacement.
System6+Vista,
If you decide to disassemble the CC, can you post pictures of ALL the components you pull out of it? What I mean is completely detailed pictures of the logic board, power supply and PAV board units. I just need to see up close the condition of each of these parts, to determine what next should be done. I need assurance that everything looks in order for proper operation.
Sorry for the retentive attitude, but I'd hate to see a good Retro Macintosh go in the dumpster, be turned into a MacQuarium, etc., over something that is so simple as to why it wasn't working in the first place. xx(
Okay... got that out of my system. I'll shut up now.
73s de Phreakout.
If you decide to disassemble the CC, can you post pictures of ALL the components you pull out of it? What I mean is completely detailed pictures of the logic board, power supply and PAV board units. I just need to see up close the condition of each of these parts, to determine what next should be done. I need assurance that everything looks in order for proper operation.
Sorry for the retentive attitude, but I'd hate to see a good Retro Macintosh go in the dumpster, be turned into a MacQuarium, etc., over something that is so simple as to why it wasn't working in the first place. xx(
Okay... got that out of my system. I'll shut up now.
73s de Phreakout.
Rather than guessing, why not just *measure* the power supply voltages? That way, you can quickly rule out/in the "dead PS" hypothesis.
And I'm not precisely sure what you mean by "hearing the crt". Could you say a bit more about what you are actually hearing? There is a gentle "staticky" crackle that can accompany the appearance of high voltage; there can be a sound associated with the vertical sweep (it'll be a buzz/hum, emitted actually by the deflection yoke); and there can be a horizontal-sweep noise. However, unless you've got the hearing range of a bat, I doubt that you could hear a CC's horizontal sweep (regular TV, sure, but a CC? Doubtful).
As to washing the logic board (should you decide that it's necessary): As another poster noted, many folks here -- including me -- have washed quite a few logic boards with a good success rate. It's been a pleasant surprise, in fact, just how well this procedure works. I was certainly as skeptical as alk until I actually ran the experiment. Just dry thoroughly before reapplying power, and you (and the board) will be fine.
And I'm not precisely sure what you mean by "hearing the crt". Could you say a bit more about what you are actually hearing? There is a gentle "staticky" crackle that can accompany the appearance of high voltage; there can be a sound associated with the vertical sweep (it'll be a buzz/hum, emitted actually by the deflection yoke); and there can be a horizontal-sweep noise. However, unless you've got the hearing range of a bat, I doubt that you could hear a CC's horizontal sweep (regular TV, sure, but a CC? Doubtful).
As to washing the logic board (should you decide that it's necessary): As another poster noted, many folks here -- including me -- have washed quite a few logic boards with a good success rate. It's been a pleasant surprise, in fact, just how well this procedure works. I was certainly as skeptical as alk until I actually ran the experiment. Just dry thoroughly before reapplying power, and you (and the board) will be fine.
Well, I'm on the assumption that others may not have the skills or equipment on hand to check voltage levels on the power supply. Some may not want to work hands on with high voltage, so I'm giving other alternatives. I know it sounds like guessing, but I at least hope to narrow things down to where the problem is originating. For all I can determine, he could have a bad logic board, PAV or PSU; I don't have any service repair manuals on hand for the CC and am going a bit blind.
Sorry, for wasting everyone's time. I don't believe I'm that bad of a technician. I've worked in a local Macintosh Repair Shop fixing these machines and I got all sorts of different patients on my bench. Very rarily will I get an older toaster Mac to work on. But I have replaced numerous PAV boards from out of iMac G3s and eMacs. Most of the rest are either LCD displays or they are strictly desktop and laptop systems, without CRT displays.
I'm at least hoping I can stay sharp and help point others in the right direction. Use my advice if you want to, but you don't have to. I'm only here to help.
73s de Phreakout.
Sorry, for wasting everyone's time. I don't believe I'm that bad of a technician. I've worked in a local Macintosh Repair Shop fixing these machines and I got all sorts of different patients on my bench. Very rarily will I get an older toaster Mac to work on. But I have replaced numerous PAV boards from out of iMac G3s and eMacs. Most of the rest are either LCD displays or they are strictly desktop and laptop systems, without CRT displays.
I'm at least hoping I can stay sharp and help point others in the right direction. Use my advice if you want to, but you don't have to. I'm only here to help.
73s de Phreakout.
Phreakout,
If you are truly willing to look at all of my pictures and help, I'd me more than happy to disassemble and take copious photos. I have been working with computers since age 4, but I know next to nothing about circuitry and electrical components; my experience usually ends at installing RAM, PCI cards, hard drives, etc. The Color Classic (especially this one in such fantastic aesthetic condition) is my dream Compact Mac, and I have told myself that I can stop collecting if I get one working. That said, whatever pictures can help you diagnose this sick puppy, I'm ready to take them.
The "CRT sound" is the familiar sound of turning on any CRT monitor or TV. My father (I am a college student living at home over summer) described it as the CRT transformer, but it is the short (less than 2 seconds) faint sound that rises in pitch, and if you really need I can take a video or make a sound clip. I am not talking about the very high frequency hissing sound that you can hear from TVs sometimes, but rather a faint, but audible to everyone, sound of giving power to a CRT.
The CRT noise is the ONLY response I get the from the CC whatsoever. I hear it every time I switch the main power on, and it gets fainter and disappears if I flip the switch many times within a few minutes, but it will do it again if I leave it off for a day or so. I have plugged two sets of ADB keyboards/mice into both of the ADB ports (different times) and pressing the power keys does absolutely nothing. I hear no fan, no hard drive, no floppy, no light and see nothing on the CRT either. Once I left the main power on for a long time and I thought I heard more CRT noises.
I do have a power meter, and know how to use it so if you can show me where to test it I can give you the readings. As long as that is mostly safe!
If you are truly willing to look at all of my pictures and help, I'd me more than happy to disassemble and take copious photos. I have been working with computers since age 4, but I know next to nothing about circuitry and electrical components; my experience usually ends at installing RAM, PCI cards, hard drives, etc. The Color Classic (especially this one in such fantastic aesthetic condition) is my dream Compact Mac, and I have told myself that I can stop collecting if I get one working. That said, whatever pictures can help you diagnose this sick puppy, I'm ready to take them.
The "CRT sound" is the familiar sound of turning on any CRT monitor or TV. My father (I am a college student living at home over summer) described it as the CRT transformer, but it is the short (less than 2 seconds) faint sound that rises in pitch, and if you really need I can take a video or make a sound clip. I am not talking about the very high frequency hissing sound that you can hear from TVs sometimes, but rather a faint, but audible to everyone, sound of giving power to a CRT.
The CRT noise is the ONLY response I get the from the CC whatsoever. I hear it every time I switch the main power on, and it gets fainter and disappears if I flip the switch many times within a few minutes, but it will do it again if I leave it off for a day or so. I have plugged two sets of ADB keyboards/mice into both of the ADB ports (different times) and pressing the power keys does absolutely nothing. I hear no fan, no hard drive, no floppy, no light and see nothing on the CRT either. Once I left the main power on for a long time and I thought I heard more CRT noises.
I do have a power meter, and know how to use it so if you can show me where to test it I can give you the readings. As long as that is mostly safe!