Thread

SE/30 booting off CF success

SE/30 booting off CF success Hardware 71 posts Nov 9, 2011 — Dec 11, 2012

#31 Sun, 27 Nov 2011 - 18:05

One should not expect wonders from an old NCR 53C80 SCSI chip.

http://support.apple.com/kb/TA29470?viewlocale=en_US

#32 Sun, 27 Nov 2011 - 21:41

One should not expect wonders from an old NCR 53C80 SCSI chip.http://support.apple.com/kb/TA29470?viewlocale=en_US

This is a repeat of the same old thing numerous people have cited time and time again. But such arguments slap logic right in the face.

It's not about slow SCSI chips in the SE/30!! If we can get 1700kb/s READ and 1700kb/s WRITE with a spinning platter drive on an SE/30 that has that slow SCSI chip, can one then argue that "it's the SCSI chip!" when a CF card gets 1700kb/s READ but only 500kb/s WRITE? Poppycock! I say no!

You can tell me that the SCSI chip in the SE/30 limits the maximum READs and WRITEs to 1700kb/s. I will accept that based on the benchmark evidence I've seen. But that does not explain why the "slow SCSI chip" would limit the speed of SSDs to much less than 1700kb/s! Don't compare the SE/30's SCSI chip with any other Mac. We know it's slower than other Macs. But that is irrelevant to this discussion! We are focused on the SE/30's SCSI chip, and we know the upper limits of the throughput it allows. Therefore, the fastest throughput is what we must focus on.

Putting it another way, the benchmark speeds of spinning platter drives in an SE/30 have become our "reference standard" because we are not seeing any "faster" benchmark speeds from SSDs (even if some contend the SSDs "feel" faster). Therefore, it doesn't matter if the SE/30 has a slow SCSI chip. It doesn't matter if the SCSI chip in the SE/30 is slower than other Macs. None of that matters. What matters is this. How fast are the READs and WRITEs of the fastest spinning platter hard drives when used internally to the SE/30? (From what I can see, it's about 1700kb/s max for READ & WRITE.) And then what is the maximum READ and WRITE speed of the best SSD in the SE/30? (From what we have seen with the Intech HD Speed Tools driver, its about 1700kb/s for READ, but only 500kb/s for WRITE, on a particular SSD setup). So if the upper WRITE speed limit is 1700kb/s for this "slow SCSI chip" why then does a flash drive get only 500kb/s WRITE speed? You cannot argue with me that "it is the slow SCSI chip"!

So as you can see, the SCSI chip is not the limiter of READ/WRITE throughput insofar as our reference standard is a spinning platter drive that we know to get a max of 1700kb/s for READ and WRITE, versus slower WRITE speeds on SSDs tested thus far. Hence, the most logical course of action is to focus our time and energy on the real potential sources of the slow-down:

a) The SSD itself (we've not yet tried an OWC SSD, but the CF cards tested here seem to indicate it's not the SSD itself)

B) The IDE-to-SCSI interface of the SSD (which is what we've started to ponder recently)

c) The software drivers (which I've long thought was the root cause of the slowdown, and we can see Intech HD SpeedTools did max out the READ throughput!)

So it's not about a "slow SCSI chip." Nor can it be about the CPU of the SE/30 either, for reasons I stated above. It's all about (a), ( B) and/or ©.

#33 Sun, 27 Nov 2011 - 23:15

Since you so nicely summarized everything,

Hence, the most logical course of action is to focus our time and energy on the real potential sources of the slow-down:
a) The SSD itself (we've not yet tried an OWC SSD, but the CF cards tested here seem to indicate it's not the SSD itself)

B) The IDE-to-SCSI interface of the SSD (which is what we've started to ponder recently)

c) The software drivers (which I've long thought was the root cause of the slowdown, and we can see Intech HD SpeedTools did max out the READ throughput!)

it seems that you have a plan on how to address the issues outlined above. Care to share the details of it with the rest of the forum readers?

#34 Mon, 28 Nov 2011 - 00:13

Plan © has partly been implemented already. You can see that if you read through previous posts. OWC recommended HD Speed Tools to me for use with their own SSDs, so I posted about that here, Spartacus then tried it out and found it sped up his CF card READ performance. So as you can clearly see, that part of the plan has been implemented, at least on the hardware Spartacus owns.

Plans (a) and ( B) are things we are all doing or wanting to do here. I myself have just been trying to influence OWC to be more fair on their LEGACY SSD pricing so I can then buy a couple and begin testing of my own. Those are IDE drives though, not SCSI. So I would need to use an IDE-to-SCSI interface on one to make it work in an SE/30. And that's where the experimentation will come in, to see if that IDE-to-SCSI interface is the bottleneck. But if I connect an OWC SSD via a generic IDE-to-SCSI interface and find that both READ and WRITE speeds are hitting our experimental maximum of 1700kb/s, then I must conclude that either something is better about the OWC SSD versus a standard CF card (which makes logical sense because a CF card is technical NOT an SSD), or it could just be a coincidence of my choice in the IDE-to-SCSI adapter.

But the point of my previous post was the the SCSI chip is largely irrelevant if we are comparing oranges to oranges. Since this thread is entitled "SE/30" I have been focused on that. And although testing on non-SE/30 machines isn't a bad thing, any benchmarks on those other Macs will not be directly comparable with the SE/30 benchmarks in terms of raw performance. Indeed the SE/30 is slower than most because of its slow SCSI chip. However, I don't see the SCSI chip in the SE/30 as having anything to do with limiting the WRITE speed of an SSDs in light of the fact that same SCSI chip is not limiting the speed of a regular spinning platter hard drive.

#35 Sat, 31 Dec 2011 - 03:48

For those that have successfully implemented a CF replacement, I am very keen on gaining some insight.

So far I have tried unsuccessfully to get my SE/30 to recognise my CF card.

I've tried the following methods:

1) Mounting the CF on the external SCSI port (the disk is not recognised by the OS)

2) Cloning a known bootable disk on CCC and mounting the CF internal SCSI port (the question mark disk appears when I boot up)

Any tips?

Will mounting the CF internally as a secondary drive work? What am I doing wrong? :?:

#36 Sat, 31 Dec 2011 - 11:40

What adapter are you using?

(the disk is not recognised by the OS)

ie, you get an error message saying the above, and asking if you want to format it? That would be the expected behaviour.

If you have formatted it on an OS X machine, it will not have the low-level drivers installed to run on a machine of that age, unless you check the box for "Intall OS 9 drivers" in Disk Utility - and, IIRC, later versions of OS X removed even that. My suggestion would be to format it from the SE/30 with the patched version of Apple Disk Tool, or with Lido, HD Toolkit, etc. The patched version of the Apple formatter is required to detect and format drives that do not have Apple-certified ROMs.

Similarly, I have my doubts that CCC will do what you need.

#37 Sun, 1 Jan 2012 - 04:16

Bunsen,

I don't know what I'm doing wrong, I know it is possible, but I can't get it to work? :?:

http://synack.net/~bbraun/idecf.html

http://synack.net/~bbraun/ridsce.html

What I meann by the OS does not recognise the CF is that it does even show up on the screen nor does it show up when I scan the SCSI bus for it, it's like it's not there, I've tried to troubleshoot using the different SCSI IDs, but to no avail, it's like it can't find the CF! :?:

#38 Mon, 2 Jan 2012 - 00:16

You need CF cards that identify themselves to the host as fixed media drives, not removable. I quote from the product page for an active converter called TrueIDE (which may help you if it is less expensive than getting the right CF cards):

permits the use of CF cards that regular (passive) converters will only show as removable devices. The active part of TrueIDE parses the data stream that is exchanged between IDE controller and the CF card, and whenever the IDE controller checks for removability, TrueIDE will report back that the media is "fixed". This will allow installing and booting any operating system from a CF card.

Of course, find out whether your existing cards are able to work in fixed mode first, before replacing them or buying this. If they can, that's not the problem.

Also, as described at your first link:

An additional side note on CF cards. Some IDE controllers require UDMA to function properly. Most CF cards (none of the ones I've tested with) support UDMA. Some higher end ~300x CF cards do support UDMA and will likely have better compatibility results than what I've tried. They're also much faster.

#39 Mon, 2 Jan 2012 - 01:35

While my experience doesn't help improve things, it may be interesting to note. I have an 8GB Seagate branded Micro-Drive (spinning platter drive, not flash) which I formatted and then installed OS 9, and then I put it in a PCMCIA adapter and inserted that into my PowerBook G3 Wallstreet PDQ. I can select it as a boot drive using Startup Disk, but my Wallstreet won't boot from it at all. Perhaps this relates to what Bunsen was saying?

#40 Mon, 2 Jan 2012 - 05:24

Thanks for trying to help me Bunsen, I appreciate it!

The CF card I am using is a Transcend Industrial CF150 4Gb, according the company's website, has true IDE mode and Ultra DMA Mode. I switched the jumper setting on the I-O Data SCSI to IDE adapter from PIO to UDMA mode as per Jumper Settings Reference. But still it is not read by the system. :?:

I have the jumper settings as follows:

Pin 1 Y (SCSI ID)

Pin 2 N (SCSI ID)

Pin 3 N (SCSI ID)

Pin 4 Y (SCSI-1 Mode)

Pin 5 Y (SCSI-1 Mode)

Pin 6 N (SCSI-1 Mode)

Pin 7 Y (DMA ATA Transfer Mode)

Pin 8 N (Flash ROM)

Pin 9 N (Internal SCSI Termination)

#41 Mon, 2 Jan 2012 - 15:35

What I meann by the OS does not recognise the CF is that it does even show up on the screen nor does it show up when I scan the SCSI bus for it, it's like it's not there, I've tried to troubleshoot using the different SCSI IDs, but to no avail, it's like it can't find the CF! :?:

Maybe you can try connecting a PATA disk to the IDE-SCSI bridge instead of a CF card. If it works O.K., then we know the IDE-SCSI bridge is alright and we can focus on the CF card.

#42 Tue, 3 Jan 2012 - 11:09

Just a quick update of my progress on my SE/30 CF journey for those that are following this thread.

:beige: :b&w:

I disconnected the internal HDD of my SE/30(A) (that is known to be readable and bootable) and mounted as an external drive on the SE/30( B) SCSI bus, but it still does not read it.

The problem is either with:

1) SCSI termination (the HDD does not have built in termination)
2) SCSI DB-25 and 50-Pin connector (though they are just cables and adapters, what could go wrong?)

Try and buy terminating resistors? Try and buy this dual drive internal SCSI cable?

#43 Tue, 3 Jan 2012 - 12:38

I disconnected the internal HDD of my SE/30(A) (that is known to be readable and bootable) and mounted as an external drive on the SE/30( B) SCSI bus, but it still does not read it.

What happens if you take the internal HDD of your SE/30(A) (that is known to be readable and bootable) and install it in SE/30( B) internally?

#44 Tue, 3 Jan 2012 - 13:01

I disconnected the internal HDD of my SE/30(A) and mounted as an external drive on the SE/30( B) SCSI bus, but it still does not read it.

Did you change the SCSI ID of the (A) drive? If both it and the internal ( B) drive are on the same ID, they will clash.

Have you tried:

Different SCSI external cables.

Different SCSI external cases.

Checking that the rear SCSI plug on the SE/30 is firmly attached to the motherboard SCSI connector?

#45 Tue, 3 Jan 2012 - 13:08

8GB Seagate branded Micro-Drive / PCMCIA adapter / PowerBook G3 Wallstreet PDQ. I can select it as a boot drive using Startup Disk, but my Wallstreet won't boot from it at all. Perhaps this relates to what Bunsen was saying?

I doubt it; a Microdrive should behave exactly as any other platter drive. Have you tried it on the internal ATA or external SCSI bus? Do we know that the Wallstreet can boot from PCMCIA at all?

#46 Wed, 4 Jan 2012 - 00:27

Have you tried it on the internal ATA or external SCSI bus?

No. But if you can tell me HOW to accomplish that, I will certainly give it a try. (Microdrives are the size of CF cards. The only way I can get it to work in my PC Card slot is because I have a CF to PCMCIA adapter. And the only reason I had that adapter was because I once used CF cards with my Newton 2100.)

Do we know that the Wallstreet can boot from PCMCIA at all?

Well, that was yet another reason why I posted what I did -- in hopes someone might be able to answer that question for me!

But based upon my inability to boot from the Microdrive while in the PC card slot of the Wallstreet, I must assume the answer is "no." I'd like to be proven wrong though!

#47 Wed, 4 Jan 2012 - 20:27

HOW to accomplish that

Uh, with a 2.5" IDE to CF adapter? They're cheap.

For external SCSI, add to that a SCSI-IDE adapter, or alternatively a SCSI-PCMCIA card reader/adapter.

#48 Thu, 5 Jan 2012 - 17:50

You can absolutely boot a WallStreet from the PCMCIA adpater! I do it all the time!

Any of you that have watched my Mac 512K videos know that I'm using a WallStreet as my bridge machine. It boots up from a 8 Gig CF card in a 16-bit PCMCIA adapter. Works just fine, and is slightly faster that the old internal Hard Drive was. In fact, I removed the internal drive, and my WallStreet is silent!

I've wanted to get a 32-bit CardBus adpater (which Wall Street was the first to support), which should speed things up considerably. The 16-bit PCMCIA adpater is nothing more than a "Slug".

#49 Thu, 5 Jan 2012 - 21:34

You can absolutely boot a WallStreet from the PCMCIA adpater! I do it all the time!

I would like to know more specifics of how you are accomplishing that. Because as I said in my previous post in this thread, using an 8GB Seagate Microdrive via PCMCIA card adapter does NOT work to boot my Wallstreet. Perhaps it was just in how it must be formatted? Because like I said, I can format my MicroDrive and install OS 9 on it AND I can see it in the Startup Disk control panel, but upon restart my Wallstreet refuses to boot off the MicroDrive and instead boots off the internal ATA hard drive.

#50 Thu, 5 Jan 2012 - 23:57

JDW,

I didn't do anything special to accomplish this. Just slapped the 8 Gig CF card into the slug, and inserted it into the PowerBook. I partitioned it with Drive Setup. I think I've used both 8.6 and 9.1 version of the tool.

If you're having issues booting from the PCMCIA slot, I would first try zapping the PRAM, then deleting the startup disk preference file.

#51 Fri, 13 Jan 2012 - 22:03

Hi guys, I finally got FWB Harddisk tools to start a low level format on my CF card, but it says that the process will take 254 minutes! Is this normal?

#52 Fri, 13 Jan 2012 - 23:28

Probably is - low level formatting takes an age, especially for larger volumes on a slower SCSI bus

#53 Sun, 15 Jan 2012 - 04:52

For those that have been following this thread know that I've been attempting to boot my pigeon pair of SE/30s from CF for a while now. I'm pleased to report that I've successfully done so.

:beige: :b&w:

I decided to put together my experience so that others can try it themselves.

Hardware

CF card Transcend Industrial CF150 4Gb (Details here)
I-O DATA R-IDSC SCSI to IDE adapter (this is the most important component of the entire project), I'm indebted to the Rob Braun who wrote some very useful material on this subject, you will find his pages linked here and here.
You also need a IDE to CF adapter, anything will do, I got mine from eBay for $2 and a Molex power Y-splitter.

The jumper settings on the SCSI to IDE adapter are:

Pin 1 Y (SCSI ID 1)

Pin 2 N (SCSI ID)

Pin 3 N (SCSI ID)

Pin 4 Y (SCSI-1 Mode)

Pin 5 Y (SCSI-1 Mode)

Pin 6 N (SCSI-1 Mode)

Pin 7 Y (DMA ATA Transfer Mode)

Pin 8 N (Flash ROM)

Pin 9 N (Internal SCSI Termination)

More detail of the jumper settings can be found here.

The CF-SSD when all setup looks like this:

Mounting the CF-SCSI Drive

You need a Mac that can run Mac OS 7, 8 or 9 with a CD-ROM drive containing the software listed below, (you can use floppies, I didn't, because I don't own any). Other people have used an external SCSI drive like Syquest or Apple SC to format their CF cards but I could not find one so I used a Power Macintosh 7200/120 instead!

Software

StuffIt (to unstuff the files)
Disk copy 6 (to create and open disk images)
Harddisk formatting software, I used FWB Harddisk toolkit 1.6, others have successfully used Patched Apple Tools and Rob Braun recommends Lido 7.

Tips

Formatting the drive can take a while, especially if your CF card is large
I partitioned the formatted CF card into 4 equal partitions, the first partition is the one your Mac will read by default.
Don't use Mac OS X to format your CF card.

Finally, here is a screenshot from my Macintosh SE/30 with the 4 CF-SSD Volumes:

#54 Sun, 15 Jan 2012 - 09:08

duxbridge, when you have time I'd love to see some benchmarks!

#55 Sun, 15 Jan 2012 - 14:34

If we can get 1700kb/s READ and 1700kb/s WRITE with a spinning platter drive on an SE/30 that has that slow SCSI chip, can one then argue that "it's the SCSI chip!" when a CF card gets 1700kb/s READ but only 500kb/s WRITE?

Can you provide a reference to a 1700kb/s write drive for an SE/30, and what write test it's able to hit that with? I've tried 10k and 15k RPM SCSI disks, and in my experience, they range from ~300kb/s at 1kb writes to ~1200kb/s at 256kb writes on the SE/30, with the same disk in a G4 with a PCI SCSI card gets ~1700kb/s at 1kb writes up to ~3500kb/s at 256kb writes.

#56 Sun, 15 Jan 2012 - 21:24

Can you provide a reference to a 1700kb/s write drive for an SE/30, and what write test it's able to hit that with?

Yes, earlier in this thread:

viewtopic.php?p=162755#p162755

viewtopic.php?p=162139#p162139

#57 Mon, 16 Jan 2012 - 04:45

Those two links are 1700kb/s read, unless I'm misunderstanding.

#58 Mon, 16 Jan 2012 - 12:34

Those two links are 1700kb/s read, unless I'm misunderstanding.

Sorry about that. I wasn't thinking clearly. And thank you for point that out.

I just now ran QuickBench 2.0 (part of Intech Hard Disk SpeedTools 3.6) on my SE/30 (with a 50MHz DiiMO accelerator installed), under OS 7.5.5:

SE30_50MHzDiiMO_IBM-DGHS.gif.58be6c9f1cf95003acbb8a5770c0e39f.gif

I tested the following hard drive mechanism, mounted inside an Apple Hard Disk 20SC SCSI enclosure:

Reads are faster than Writes, as you can see. WRITES peaked at 1.4MB/s while READS peacked at nearly 1.8MB/s. I ran the same benchmark 3 times and the results were largely the same each time.

(By the way, for those of you using QuickBench, I highly recommend the Numerical View on the SE/30, since if you do the Line graph, you cannot see the colors and no one has any idea what the lines mean.)

#59 Sat, 11 Feb 2012 - 01:14

I am now trying to optimize my CF card as well using an AztecMonster. It seems like the biggest variable in upping the performance when I am installing the drivers is to enable or disable "blind writes". If blind writes are enabled, performance goes up to the SE/30's max capability for reads, but writes become unstable. If blind writes are disabled, read performance goes down to ~600kB/s speeds and writes even lower. I am using a disk utility called CharisMac Anubis Plus.

Anyone have ideas here on how to get better stability with blind writes enabled?

#60 Sat, 11 Feb 2012 - 01:27

The SCSI Manager supports two data transfer methods: polled and blind. During a polled transfer , the SCSI Manager senses the state of the Macintosh SCSI controller hardware to determine when the controller is ready to transfer another byte. In a blind transfer, the SCSI Manager assumes that the SCSI controller (and the target device) can keep up with a specified transfer rate, and does not explicitly sense whether the hardware is ready....

Newer Macintosh models include hardware support for handshaking, allowing blind transfers to be both fast and reliable.

Blind transfers seem like living on the edge to me. Instability comes with the territory.