Thread
Twiggy 128K prototype, again.
Did you see this?
http://www.cultofmac.com/160279/pick-up-this-extremely-rare-128k-mac-prototype-for-a-cool-100000/
Most certainly not Wozniak's, but impressive pics. Is it the same that surfaced some months ago?
http://www.cultofmac.com/160279/pick-up-this-extremely-rare-128k-mac-prototype-for-a-cool-100000/
Most certainly not Wozniak's, but impressive pics. Is it the same that surfaced some months ago?
Yep. I'd be very surprised to see another one floating around.
I'm impressed by how big the drive is inside the case. Talk about blocking any ability to effectively cool by convection. Without vents on top of that case, I cannot imagine how that thing didn't overheat just by looking at it ... also interesting how similar the analogue board is to the final production version. The flyback appears to be a more robust model than used in the production run. The keyboard slide out user guide is pretty cool. I do recall reading that Jobs killed it because he thought the Mac should be so easy to use that a built-in guide should not be necessary, and might actually suggest otherwise. He's not entirely wrong. The number of hidden shortcuts built-into the Mac were minimal. By contrast the typical PC user actually memorized several dozen command prompt codes, lest they constantly had to refer to such a booklet, just for routine operations.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160781780426
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160781780426
I know the seller. He's a local. Yes, this is the same prototype 128 that surfaced a while ago.
That's all I am allowed to say about him though.
That's all I am allowed to say about him though.
Don't miss out on the discussion going on here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18208
and here: http://applefritter.com/content/twiggy-prototype-128k-mac-ebay
and here: http://applefritter.com/content/twiggy-prototype-128k-mac-ebay
I like that shot across our bows about the registration approval problem. There are enough of us who check out 'fritter on a regular basis that a PM or request in a post would have gotten him registered here in a heartbeat.
Don't trust the dude (mactwiggy), we all know he could have tried a lot harder to investigate the machine, he always intended to generate enough interest (at the expense of the community generously trying to help him) to flip it. ...And let's give a hand to "wozniac" who can't decide how to properly insert a floppy disk into a disk drive. At least he remembered to include a photo of Jobs that is now requisite for selling vintage Apple hardware.
Now, if it had been a picture of Jobs with a Twiggy Drive Mac, then I would be impressed, but it shows a 3.5 drive. Big deal, I have a couple of 128K's of my own, as do countless other collectors.
That's why I mentioned that the pic of SJ was ripe for a Photoshopped Alternate History Gag. [
] ]'>
I agree about the publicity stunts, it was clear to me from the start that he angled for T.O. to ask him to do an article on it for 'fritter just to be able to link to the article for the resale.
I'm still of the opinion that the drive doesn't work, It seems impossible to me that he didn't at least try to get it to boot. He likely never mentioned it to keep the asking price up as "untested" with the hopes of getting it booted by a well-heeled buyer.
. . . but I'm more than a bit skeptical by nature . . . and this entire stage production has me absolutely suspicious. YMMV.
] ]'>I agree about the publicity stunts, it was clear to me from the start that he angled for T.O. to ask him to do an article on it for 'fritter just to be able to link to the article for the resale.
I'm still of the opinion that the drive doesn't work, It seems impossible to me that he didn't at least try to get it to boot. He likely never mentioned it to keep the asking price up as "untested" with the hopes of getting it booted by a well-heeled buyer.
. . . but I'm more than a bit skeptical by nature . . . and this entire stage production has me absolutely suspicious. YMMV.
The real question is, which one of you are going to buy it? 
)
)
NOT I!!!!! All I needed were the shots of the sheet metal box so's I can hide the Slot loader and ITX Mobo or a Duo 2300c Mobo in a ClearCaseProtoHoaxMacHack! [}
] ]'>
] ]'>A Lisa "1" (all I heard was a Lisa, Lisa XL and Lisa 2) should be able to at least format the disks and check if they are okay. Someone with a Lisa usually has some other Mac to go with it.
I still don't know why two people can't solve a problem of booting a "beyond rare prototype" with the twiggy disk. Or at least try a 400KB Sony external 3.5".
Maybe because it's broken?
More to the point, which resident hacker is going to recreate a twiggy mac for sh*ts and giggles? Could you use the guts of a 5.25 Drive, make a bracket to fit it onto the compact mac chassis, and change the faceplate to do this? If I had access to that faceplate, I would so create a template, then punch out 50 or so full cases in clear with a 5.25 drive installed, so we could all have a bit of twiggy goodness.
There seems to be more pictures shown here than is in the ebay listing:
http://adam.trideja.com/PrototypeTwiggyMac/
there is even a 59MB video to watch/download:
http://adam.trideja.com/PrototypeTwiggyMac/TwiggyMacDiskRead.avi
http://adam.trideja.com/PrototypeTwiggyMac/
there is even a 59MB video to watch/download:
http://adam.trideja.com/PrototypeTwiggyMac/TwiggyMacDiskRead.avi
Practically speaking though, what System/Finder combination would even allow you to use that Twiggy drive?
Ok so the video isn't very exciting, it just shows a FileWare disk being inserted into the drive, the drive crunching away on the disk attempting to read it, very slowly and then spits it back out
So it would seem if there was a valid OS on a disk it would attempt to load it.
I wonder why the seller did not include the link to the video in his ebay listing, or upload it to youtube for the world to see
So it would seem if there was a valid OS on a disk it would attempt to load it.
I wonder why the seller did not include the link to the video in his ebay listing, or upload it to youtube for the world to see
Something a lot older than System .85,
If you owned this thing you would want to talk to someone like Andy Hertzfeld, he might know of someone that still had some disks for one of these.
Surely there would still be a few of these in the basements of the original design team
Wisful thinking I know
For $100,000 I would fully expect that baby to be hand-delivered by Hertzfeld himself, followed by a special beyond-the-grave message from Steve Jobs. 8-o
Sure, it is overpriced.
I would highly doubt in its current state it is going to sell for anything near that price.
maybe $10,000-20,000 at best
As has been mentioned before it is of huge historical importance, but it is practically useless, without a start up disk to see some prototype Macintoshness.
As has been mentioned earlier without venting that thing is going to overheat pretty quickly anyway, back in the day you must have imagined the guys running these with the backs off them, or did they at some point have a fan? before Steve stomped on that idea and made them completely silent,
I would highly doubt in its current state it is going to sell for anything near that price.
maybe $10,000-20,000 at best
As has been mentioned before it is of huge historical importance, but it is practically useless, without a start up disk to see some prototype Macintoshness.
As has been mentioned earlier without venting that thing is going to overheat pretty quickly anyway, back in the day you must have imagined the guys running these with the backs off them, or did they at some point have a fan? before Steve stomped on that idea and made them completely silent,
Photos on here
http://applefritter.com/content/macintosh-128k-prototype-twiggy-drive
Something about the front panel doesn't sit well with me.
Sure, its supposedly a prototype, but the panel just looks a bit rough and ready to be something assembled by Apple.
Maybe I'm reading too much into it. but I think Trash80toHPMini might have a point.
http://applefritter.com/content/macintosh-128k-prototype-twiggy-drive
Something about the front panel doesn't sit well with me.
Sure, its supposedly a prototype, but the panel just looks a bit rough and ready to be something assembled by Apple.
Maybe I'm reading too much into it. but I think Trash80toHPMini might have a point.
you may have hit the nail on the head there, look at this folder on the ebay sellers account:
http://adam.trideja.com/Apple%20Computer%20Pics/128k:512k/Proto%20Mac%20128k/
that is the SAME front panel, with the hand written black pen under the bezel
and the image watermarks are from ebay..........
Another Hitler diaries?
At the very least, it would make a handy mini ITX project with a DVD/Bluray drive }
But the number written is different ... something like 1031 and 1027
Yes I see that now after saving the photos and resizing them up a bit.
The faceplate bezels look rough and ready because they're soft tooled, short run prototypes for engineering purposes. No prototype would be clean on the inside and textured on the outside unless they had gone to the final hard tooling production steps. Hard tooling is expensive today and back then it was murderously so.
The numbering scheme on the ProtoBezels is an interesting observation. Thirty would be a nice round estimate for a soft tooled prototype run. The first ten or fifteen having been brutalized in the process of fit and fitting refinement and the last ten or fifteen hitting the streets as pre-production seed units . . . with functional EXTERNAL FDDs! A few of the MacTwiggyDrives must have been functional, just wildly impractical in terms of a shipping product.
Interesting observation about the sheet metal enclosure blocking the only visible source for convection cooling air, that's worth looking into in terms of theoretical ProtoHoaxMac production.
I've been collecting pics and info on the TwiggyMac for over ten years and nothing I've seen has or read about them has been conclusive. What I find really entertaining is that many of the 128k's most elegant solutions were done in secret, by qualified engineers right under the nose of THE STEVE, who'd all but forbidden any design and testing alternative that wasn't at the center of his (tunnel)VISION of "insane greatness."
[sJ "bashing" disclaimer mode]
No disrespect for the dead here, he was more of the architect type, the TEAM were more akin to the civil engineers who actually design the building after correcting the pie in the sky sketches and models of the dreamer. Luckily, INSANELY GREAT engineers sometimes translate such visions into concrete glass and steel, IRL. Plastic, glass and steel in the case of the (lobotomized) 128k and the Macintosh Team.
Steve Jobs was no Edison of the modern age by any stretch of the imagination, IMHO. He was more the consumer electronics Frank Lloyd Wright, of the modern age, IMHO. Both were geniuses, herding other (young and eager to surpass their mentors) geniuses in many specialized fields along the master's visionary path. The folks doing the real work and coming up with the ideas that work IRL never get the credit due them in any field, especially politics! [}] ]'>
Charles Eames would be a far more accurate parallel to SJ in terms of "hogging the glory" in the world of Industrial Design, but that's too obscure a reference.
SJ WAS A GENIUS! There, I've said it! But he had feet of clay . . . who doesn't . . . am I the only one here who finds his particular brand of clay insanely irritating?
[/sJ "bashing" disclaimer mode]
p.s. sorry about the tangent, this might actually make an interesting topic! Whatcha think? The SJ "bashing" thread? :?:
The numbering scheme on the ProtoBezels is an interesting observation. Thirty would be a nice round estimate for a soft tooled prototype run. The first ten or fifteen having been brutalized in the process of fit and fitting refinement and the last ten or fifteen hitting the streets as pre-production seed units . . . with functional EXTERNAL FDDs! A few of the MacTwiggyDrives must have been functional, just wildly impractical in terms of a shipping product.
Interesting observation about the sheet metal enclosure blocking the only visible source for convection cooling air, that's worth looking into in terms of theoretical ProtoHoaxMac production.
I've been collecting pics and info on the TwiggyMac for over ten years and nothing I've seen has or read about them has been conclusive. What I find really entertaining is that many of the 128k's most elegant solutions were done in secret, by qualified engineers right under the nose of THE STEVE, who'd all but forbidden any design and testing alternative that wasn't at the center of his (tunnel)VISION of "insane greatness."
[sJ "bashing" disclaimer mode]
No disrespect for the dead here, he was more of the architect type, the TEAM were more akin to the civil engineers who actually design the building after correcting the pie in the sky sketches and models of the dreamer. Luckily, INSANELY GREAT engineers sometimes translate such visions into concrete glass and steel, IRL. Plastic, glass and steel in the case of the (lobotomized) 128k and the Macintosh Team.
Steve Jobs was no Edison of the modern age by any stretch of the imagination, IMHO. He was more the consumer electronics Frank Lloyd Wright, of the modern age, IMHO. Both were geniuses, herding other (young and eager to surpass their mentors) geniuses in many specialized fields along the master's visionary path. The folks doing the real work and coming up with the ideas that work IRL never get the credit due them in any field, especially politics! [}
] ]'>Charles Eames would be a far more accurate parallel to SJ in terms of "hogging the glory" in the world of Industrial Design, but that's too obscure a reference.
SJ WAS A GENIUS! There, I've said it! But he had feet of clay . . . who doesn't . . . am I the only one here who finds his particular brand of clay insanely irritating?
[/sJ "bashing" disclaimer mode]
p.s. sorry about the tangent, this might actually make an interesting topic! Whatcha think? The SJ "bashing" thread? :?:
The seller could have at least tried System .97 and System .85 to see what would happen. If he's got a Lisa, there's the twiggy writer, if he's got a 128K, I will bet that he has something else besides that -- like a AIO or IIci. I don't see much of an excuse not to test it so we can say "guys, I tried .85 and .97, and 1.0 to see what would happen and it _______________."
As for for bashing Steve Jobs, as they say, "Credit goes up and blame comes down."
As for for bashing Steve Jobs, as they say, "Credit goes up and blame comes down."
Yeah, Trash, there's a lot of assuming going on here, with no understanding of what it takes to prototype something. The reality is there were A few dozen of these Mas in circulation for developers which Jobs was finally convinced were the key to the Macs success. And they didn't just send out a box of circuit boards. There a numerous pictures around showing Microsoft with a couple of the Twiggy Macs. Keep in mind the Twiggy Mac persisted right up until about November before the Macs went into production. And the software made some substantial leaps during the month of December. You all know the story of how the there were so many bugs the Guided Tour would not run on the release System, which is why we even have System .85. This Mac uses a completely different storage system!! Why on earth would System .85 run on it? Why on Earth would a Lisa formatted Twiggy drive be readable in a Macintosh which used a completely different file system? Why would a drive Steve Jobs was not even aware of at the time be even remotely compatible? Especially one Sony had to make substantial changes to in order to work with the Mac (and which, by the way is incompatible with the Lisa).
On another note, can you imagine if Apple had sent out the standard production run Twiggy drives to developers? They would have paid Apple to take the Macs back and get out of their contract. I do wonder whether many of these developers just took the backs off of them as they began to heat up and surely exhibit problems. On the other hand, the engineers knew they were shipping the Mac with substandard specs, which is why the flyback has provision for a more robust part. I would imagine the prototypes had the original over-engineered specs while the unit was in development to limit the likelihood of hardware related problems entering the equation (that and engineers always over-engineer anyway). Only when Sculley demanded they increase the profit margin were they asked to limit the design specs. Surely the engineers realized that the huge, heat producing Twiggy drive, blocking much of the airflow, required superior parts over a more ventilated production model had shipped with. The fact remains, had the Mac shipped with the final analogue board used in the the late model Mac Plus, the 128 would have had a much better track record, fan or no. And I suspect that even fell short of the specs the engineers required for TwiggyMac.
On another note, can you imagine if Apple had sent out the standard production run Twiggy drives to developers? They would have paid Apple to take the Macs back and get out of their contract. I do wonder whether many of these developers just took the backs off of them as they began to heat up and surely exhibit problems. On the other hand, the engineers knew they were shipping the Mac with substandard specs, which is why the flyback has provision for a more robust part. I would imagine the prototypes had the original over-engineered specs while the unit was in development to limit the likelihood of hardware related problems entering the equation (that and engineers always over-engineer anyway). Only when Sculley demanded they increase the profit margin were they asked to limit the design specs. Surely the engineers realized that the huge, heat producing Twiggy drive, blocking much of the airflow, required superior parts over a more ventilated production model had shipped with. The fact remains, had the Mac shipped with the final analogue board used in the the late model Mac Plus, the 128 would have had a much better track record, fan or no. And I suspect that even fell short of the specs the engineers required for TwiggyMac.
On the subject of "Twiggy Macs" and ventilation slots, keep in mind that the guy driving this project was the same person that insisted that the Apple /// have *no ventilation whatsoever*. None. No fan, no slots, no holes, *nuttin*. Remember that Steve Jobs was forcefully booted from the Lisa team, no doubt in part because the failure of the Apple /// validated worries that his unreasonable engineering demands would compromise what Apple considered their most "mission-critical" project, and he basically took over the skunkworks Macintosh project in retaliation. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the engineers had to fight tooth-and-nail for every hole they had to carve in that case, nor would it surprise me if a few of the early TwiggyMacs died, or even literally went up in flames, when fitted with their prototype skins.
And Trash, have you actually tried emailing Andy Hertzfeld and just *asking* him whether working-and-skinned Twiggy prototypes were ever actually in circulation? He has the reputation of being fairly approachable.
And Trash, have you actually tried emailing Andy Hertzfeld and just *asking* him whether working-and-skinned Twiggy prototypes were ever actually in circulation? He has the reputation of being fairly approachable.
I think it's possible that the Mac would boot from any system version compatible with the 128k that you could get onto a twiggy disk. In the video, when the disk was inserted, the drive tried to read the disk, seeked around, failed, and spat it out. This proves that there is at least a somewhat-twiggy-compatible driver in ROM. The Mac is able to operate the twiggy drive without any OS running, so it's not completely absurd to imagine that any OS will work on it.
Take a look at 6:30 on this video, that sure looks like a functional "skinned" prototype to me. Circa 1983.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTK4-QYnDNw&feature=youtube_gdata_player
This brings up an interesting point which I'm sure must have been discussed at some point, but in the Pirates of Silicon Valley movie, Jobs shows Gates the Mac on his first visit and it is a production model 128K, when it should have been a Twiggy drive.
As for the Twiggy-driver being in ROM, not really sure I know what to think about that video. I've seen PC formatted disks behave the same way. But the fact that a Mac tries to access a proper disk format, does not mean there is a driver that can access the disk properly.
http://adam.trideja.com/PrototypeTwiggyMac/TwiggyMacDiskRead.avi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTK4-QYnDNw&feature=youtube_gdata_player
This brings up an interesting point which I'm sure must have been discussed at some point, but in the Pirates of Silicon Valley movie, Jobs shows Gates the Mac on his first visit and it is a production model 128K, when it should have been a Twiggy drive.
As for the Twiggy-driver being in ROM, not really sure I know what to think about that video. I've seen PC formatted disks behave the same way. But the fact that a Mac tries to access a proper disk format, does not mean there is a driver that can access the disk properly.
http://adam.trideja.com/PrototypeTwiggyMac/TwiggyMacDiskRead.avi