Thread

Techknight™ - LC PDS NETWORK CARD IN A SE/30?

68kMLA 68k 61 posts Dec 21, 2013 to Jan 6, 2014

#1 Sat, 21 Dec 2013 - 21:20 68kMLA

who wants to pay $150 for a nic that works in the SE/30… Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Boooooooooooooooooo!

who whats to pay $9.99 for a LC NIC and install it into the SE/30 Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy!

Techknight might have the ideas/knowledge to make this happen !

Postby techknight » 20 Dec 2013, 22:34
BTW, Off topic: I wonder if LC PDS ethernet cards which are still plentiful, would work in an SE/30. Technically the PDS is the same. Well not the same pinning, but same architecture.

Postby techknight » 21 Dec 2013, 00:49
Now my eyes went crosseyed, but it looks like the LC-PDS. The lower 96-pin portion of it can directly swap over to the SE/30. All the signals are the same, however the pinouts are ENTIRELY different so a remap PCB would be needed.

Only thing that i can see from a quick glance, is A28 to A30 arnt included in the lower PDS. Only the expanded PDS, whereas the SE/30 contains all address lines. Also the LC PDS contains a function code 3 (FC3) which the SE/30 doesnt have. But i dont think ethernet cards use this control pin. Also the LC only has /PDS.BG (bus grant), whereas the SE/30 has both a /PDS.BG and a /BG. No idea what impact this would have.

I believe that LC Ethernet cards, given a pinout-remap would directly swap over, They both map into Slotspace $E

Postby techknight » 21 Dec 2013, 16:07
Well the LC card wont go directly into the SE/30 PDS. the wiring is 110% different, However all the signals appear to be the same. So to make this work, I have to make an adapter PCB with the eurocard connectors on each end, and wiring adaptations.

Might be possible with this inexpensive adaptor card?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SuperMac-PDS-Angle-Adapter-Vintage-Apple-Mac/151011026594?_trksid=p2047675.m1985&_trkparms=aid%3D444000%26algo%3DSOI.CURRENT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D17905%26meid%3D3560927830306836012%26pid%3D100012%26prg%3D8262%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D151117999850%26

#2 Sat, 21 Dec 2013 - 22:47 68kMLA

I just checked an Asante Mac LCIII NIC against the SuperMac PDS Adapter and it's looking pretty good. I have a sneaking suspicion that there will be no problems at all from the driver side for these cards.

#3 Sat, 21 Dec 2013 - 23:03 68kMLA

Shouldnt have an issue, as an 030PDS is 030PDS. Im sure using the correct connector, it would work on a Duo as well... at least HARDWARE wise.

Now software, that could be an issue if the LC ethernet driver recognizes the machine as not an LC, and fails to load. That would be my only worry which a software hacker would have to fix. But I dont think that will be an issue as im sure the cards DeclROM will fix everything anyway.

#4 Fri, 27 Dec 2013 - 03:36 68kMLA

I did some more research in development notes, and designing cards/drivers etc etc...

I noticed that the LC uses Slot $E for its cards. Unfortunately, the SE/30 doesnt use slot E, as Slot E is taken by the on-board video.

So i dunno what im going to do about that. lol. Also the PDS address map is way different. The expansion address is the same though.

#5 Fri, 27 Dec 2013 - 03:44 68kMLA

SE/30 Address map:

lc address map.png[/attachment]

Note the differences.

#6 Fri, 27 Dec 2013 - 04:32 68kMLA

I guess the way around this is, Disable the on-board SE/30 video by removing its DeclROM, Use that IIsI video card hoping its not mapped in Slot $E. If its mapped in something other than Slot $E, then I can use that, and map Slot $E to the LC Ethernet.

#7 Fri, 27 Dec 2013 - 04:35 68kMLA

Since you're adapting the card, you can hotwire the interrupt/SlotManager ID for the NIC to whatever interrupt line is available on whatever machine you're wedging it into, I would think.

It then becomes a question of the drivers. In the case of my Asante NIC, the driver will be looking for "a" NIC to be in whatever slot might be available on whatever Mac in which "a" NIC made by Asante may reside. I don't think the NIC needs to know jack about which interrupt is yanking its chain, only the driver needs to know.

Whatcha' think, bbraun? :?:

#8 Fri, 27 Dec 2013 - 04:52 68kMLA

I found it on p.1 of the SuperIIsi™ thread

I finally got my IIsi delivered today to check this out.The 3 normal pseudo-slots for the IIsi are 9, A, and B. Pretty straightforward, and configurable card like the maccon ethernet can be configured for any of those 3 slots. The maccon ethernet can even be configured for slot E on the IIsi according to the documentation, which brings it to a total of possibly 4 usable pseudoslots.

But slots C and D are the trouble. Are these slots recognized by Slot Manager? They have no interrupt over the 030 PDS slot, but if you can get a card into those address ranges, will it be recognized?

I got one of these cards, and swapped A24 and A25, which swaps both address spaces: D and E, and 9 and A. Additionally I swapped /IRQ1 and /IRQ2 (9 and A's IRQs). The swap was performed by connecting pin C27 on the IIsi side to pin B27 on the passthrough side and vice versa, then severing the traces for those two lines on the PCB. Same thing for pin C4 and B4. I threw on one of these right angle dealies to get a more vertical arrangement. There may be more involved in swapping slots 9 and A, such as swapping /IPL0 and /IPL1 maybe.

[attachment=0]IMG_0121.JPG[/attachment]

I then configured the maccon ethernet for slot E and put it in the adapter, and the result is the above picture of it showing up in slot D.

So, it looks like the IIsi can have as many pseudoslots as you want, if you can:

1) Get the card showing up in the right address space.

2) Figure out interrupts.

But, the slot mgr will find it if you can deal with those two problems.

So, no more complaining about the IIsi ROM only allowing 3 pseudoslots.

I still haven't quite digested this info as yet, but I think it's tres applicable!

#9 Fri, 27 Dec 2013 - 05:14 68kMLA

You can change the interrupt line from Slot E to whatever. Thats not the issue. The issue is the address decoder PALs on the Card itself, it wants to decode inside slotspace E, and that would have to be modified.

For example, if i modify the line so the card triggers Slot A, its going to read slot A's address, and it will throw a buss error. Why? because the card wont respond. its address decoders are setup for Slot E.

So In order to make it work, i would have to flip a couple of address lines around physically, so it appears in a different slot space than E, and obviously move the IRQ to the correct spot. Same thing bbraun did.

Now, the DeclROM I dont know if it is hardcoded for Slot E or not. I doubt it as the nubus slot manager will find it wherever it is, The whole purpose behind "plug and play".

According to the LC, I have C, D and E. But C and D are unsupported at least by the LCIII.

Now since I have no idea what slot space to throw it in, It might be better off for me just to make a wire-wrap PDS adapter card. even though i HATE wire-wrap boards. But oh well, it is what it is.

Edit: Also it appears that 99% of the LC ethernet cards, are 96-pin PDS, which means its a 24-bit card. Now the 120-pin slot is 32-bit. So, I assume even though mode32 is enabled, the card should still work in 24-bit mode? Of course the Modes are defined by the SIZE pins on the PDS. So that makes sense.

#10 Fri, 27 Dec 2013 - 05:25 68kMLA

I still don't think the PALs on the card need to know Jack. The CPU and driver only need to know the Slot ID and Address Block in which the NIC resides. If the Slot manager can identify the NIC, it can run the NIC, the NIC itself is a relatively dumb I/O device. Only the DeclROM of the Card has any preconceived notions about what the card is supposed to be, what it's supposed to do and where it's supposed to be doing it . . .

. . . and that, can be changed. [}

] ]'>

I'm not even certain the LC cards need to know what slot they are in, it's always the same and it's the slot that knows it's $E, wire the LC NIC to a different interrupt that's available on the /30 & si and the Slot Manager will find it and run it. The NIC doesn't run anything or know from where its strings are being pulled.

Buzz the connections on an SE/30/IIsi NIC with jumpers for changing the addresses. Dollars to Doughnuts they only A/B switch the card Slot Address input between whatever address lines it's wired to.

#11 Fri, 27 Dec 2013 - 05:27 68kMLA

I hope the card's DeclROM is using indirect or relative addressing. Because if its using direct addressing for JSR/CALL routines then remapping away from slot E wont work unless its modified.

Reason I bring this up, becuase I remember back in the 6805 days that if i moved the ROM around to a different spot, It would break the operation on any ASM code that used direct-addressed jump to subroutines, or just jump blocks in general. As long as I used within-page calls/jumps I could move the ROM anywhere.

So basically any jump vectors that looked like this: JSR $E000 0000 would break if i moved the ROM to somewhere other than E. (of course DeclROM is above the slotspace).

#12 Fri, 27 Dec 2013 - 05:37 68kMLA

The only thing the DeclROM does is tell the CPU/Slot Manager about the card its socket is soldered to, and sometimes supplies the driver to the system, it doesn't run anything.

#13 Fri, 27 Dec 2013 - 05:43 68kMLA

It doesnt tell the mac its required slot-space?

#14 Fri, 27 Dec 2013 - 06:14 68kMLA

Nope, the Mac KNOWS in which slot the DeclROM/Card resides by its reply when that interrupt/Slot ID is polled by the Slot Manager at startup.

Just because only $E is available on the LC Series, doesn't mean the card would know if it had been piped another interrupt, an interrupt is an interrupt, only the OS needs to keep which one is for what straight. A NuBus Card and its DeclROM don't care in which PseudoSlot Address they're dumped, they just need to respond when that particular chain is pulled. LC Cards are likely only set up for $E because that's all LCs have . . .

. . . until Herr Braun gets aholda' them. }

#15 Fri, 27 Dec 2013 - 12:40 68kMLA

Actually, each NuBus Slot has its Slot assignment built in, I'm going to make a W.A.guess that it's on the same pin for each slot . . .

. . . just woke up, gotta make some coffee. |)

#16 Fri, 27 Dec 2013 - 13:01 68kMLA

offtopic

so i would assume the IIsi can do nubus as well because of nubus transceiver… on the LB?

Nubus network cards are so much cheaper and easier to find…

seems like you can get IIsi Nubus adapter cards for reasonable too.

just woke up too, slept like 10 hours... yesterday with the IIsi ram thing was an all nighter…

I just went to the coney island and got breakfast for the the wife/kids/myself.

#17 Fri, 27 Dec 2013 - 13:24 68kMLA

oops i was wrong. the IIsi nubus adaptor card is quite sophisticated….

[attachment=0]Screen Shot 2013-12-27 at 8.22.06 AM.png[/attachment]

DING DING DING!!!

Light bulb….

would this work in the SE/30 ? maybe heat gun off the fpu….

#18 Fri, 27 Dec 2013 - 14:21 68kMLA

Good notion that, uni. Bunsen and I have been poking around that very hack for years.

Back on the original topic: I'll have some very interesting piccies to post later for this same hack in the IIsi! :approve:

< . . . resistance is futile . . . >

Anybody got a trashed SE/30 or just a MoBo for trade?

#19 Fri, 27 Dec 2013 - 14:28 68kMLA

Anybody got a trashed SE/30 or just a MoBo for trade?

make sure you specify ( working )

i'v got 5 dead se/30 mobo's

3 empty se/30 cases

I think when they are dead dead like the 5 i have… and the one that techknight has from japan…

the GLU I/C cooks… from the cap goo shorting just the right items.

thats is my hunch.

working but:

no sound = GOOD

no SCSI = GOOD

Gangster stripes = GOOD

garbled Video even if you can make out a some what flashing floppy disk icon = GOOD

Dead ADB ports = GOOD

working but NEEDS CAPS(leaking) = GOOD

battery explosions are almost always - bad

this screen = bad

[attachment=0]Screen Shot 2013-12-27 at 9.45.23 AM.png[/attachment]

#20 Fri, 27 Dec 2013 - 18:00 68kMLA

Techknight™ - LC PDS Network Card etc. in an SE/30 or IIsi? :?:

What's good for the goose . . . [}

] ]'>

My first take on this notion was to remove the NIC's Connector and wire it up at a right angle to the SuperMac PDS Adapter as if it were the PowerCache Card on a Twin Slot Adapter. I'd thought to use fairly heavy gauge wires from the address and data thru holes for the Zeners to connect to the thru-holes of the de-soldered LC-PDS connector. Other signals need to be routed around the SuperMac Adapter a/o through the vias on the to the NIC with wire wrap jumper wires, but the first 64 connections are easy! The adaptation of the PDS and its interrupt/slot address reassignment would have been done in the loom.

However, that didn't work out. The Radius_Color_Pivot_II/IIsi must be used as the PDS Adapter in the IIsi's PDS due to its length and shape, so the SuperMac Adapter needs to be plugged into the RCPII/IIsi instead.

Take two:

'>

#21 Fri, 27 Dec 2013 - 18:12 68kMLA

if genie fixes all 3 of my se/30 boards i will send you one.

#22 Fri, 27 Dec 2013 - 18:49 68kMLA

That would be most welcome, THX, uni! [

] ]'>

I'm going to be backing up the borked HDD from the QS'02 over the next couple of days. I'm gonna do the "Hacks" folder first so I can get at all the .AI files for the SuperIIsi™ so I can start doing the hookup diagrams and a rough PCB layout for this hack.

Meanwhile, I've got a bunch of battery holders to saw up into suitable pieces. [}

] ]'>

edit: how do you like the way the LCIII NIC lines up in the IIsi?

#23 Sat, 28 Dec 2013 - 04:19 68kMLA

Oh boy, this one is a doozie to explain:

[attachment=0]030PDS-2-LCIII-PDS.2p.jpg[/attachment]

Left side is facing the drives

Right side is facing the backplane

Solder side of the SuperMac PDS Adpter is down, as if it's laying on the inverted lid of the IIsi

LCIII NIC is overlaid above the Adapter with its solder side up (rotated 180 degrees from its normal . . .

. . . and the Adapter PCB would be sandwiched in between the two.

#24 Sat, 28 Dec 2013 - 04:55 68kMLA

Got my video card today. Has jumpers near the PDS connector. Maybe they are slotspace IRQ jumpers?

BTW According to your pic, its basically what I was going to do. But without the usage of these risers and adapters and right angle stacks of nightmares.

Just 1 board, and jumpers. thats it. Tall enough to extend up into the case, but short enough to hold the video card and LC adapter both.

#25 Sat, 28 Dec 2013 - 07:05 68kMLA

Heh! If it can't be taken over the top, underneath and all around, it ain't worth doing!

[attachment=0]Control_Lines_etc.00.2p.jpg[/attachment]

Here's the diagram of what needs to be reconciled, the Power/Ground, data lines, address lines and misc.TXT are on four other layers of the file.

#26 Sat, 28 Dec 2013 - 09:09 68kMLA

So far it looks like another ten or so connections can be made to the Zener thru-holes in the SuperMac PDS Adapter along with all 64 Address and Data lines. So far I've only come up with about ten signals that will need to be tapped from the PDS Pass-thru connector's solder cones to the adapter PCB. There are sure to be more, but it's looking good.

These diagrams show only the control lines, no Address, Data or Power/Ground connections are shown for simplicity.

Right side of diagram:

Jumpers-B-00.2p.jpg[/attachment]

I don't know how this will fit into the SE/30, but it's looking really good for the IIsi, if it will work at all. [

] ]'>

#27 Sat, 28 Dec 2013 - 09:10 68kMLA

man your up late - early

#28 Sat, 28 Dec 2013 - 09:16 68kMLA

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz |)

#29 Sat, 28 Dec 2013 - 16:32 68kMLA

< . . . slurps last bit of first cup of coffee |) >

First: I just realized that this NIC doesn't even have a Declaration ROM! :O

ASANTE TECH, INC. © 1993 MacLC III REV.D

Dunno if that's good or bad, but I'm switching to one of the pair of Plug & Play NICs that olePigeon sourced for me.

Macsense brand: E430 LC PDS Ethernet Card LC PDS P/N: 110-00014-100 Ver. 1.3

The drivers are built into a beautiful little 28pin DIP Socketed DeclROM, so that may make things far easier . . .

. . . or more difficult? :?:

IIRC, these were NIB @ $5 ea, coupled with the SuperMac PDS Adapter and Radius Color Pivot II/IIsi that's about $10 for the grand total . . .

. . . shipping costs additional. :lol:

Second: thank heavens I do incremental versions as backup in case of corrupted files . . .

. . . sometime between 1:30AM and 3:43 AM the file got messed up so I can't open it! No biggie. ;D

< . . . another mug of Java later. >

edit: WooHoo! It just dawned on me, Macsense made a NuBus version of this card (as did Asante for theirs) so the DeclROM's onboard drivers may not make any differentiation for the Slot ID. Like the NuBus version of this NIC, the LC version very likely just makes use of whatever interrupt is available in any slot where it has been installed. There's really no need for two versions of Driver or DeclROM . . .

. . . as I read the docs in Designing Cards & Drivers anyway. :?:

#30 Mon, 30 Dec 2013 - 05:39 68kMLA

Ok, I've had my fill of this LC NIC conversion already! It's long past ime to fab some external battery packs for testing on the Duos! :approve:

I've got a physical setup for the IIsi that allows for a wrong angle hacked SuperMac Adapter to flat stack a third card in the IIsi along with acting as the chassis for an LC PDS and its adapter board. I chose another NIC as chance would have it, I haven't got lot of small SE/30/11si Cards to pick from for experimental purposes.

[attachment=7]LC-NIC_in_IIsi-Backplane.2p.jpg[/attachment]

Here's how it looks from the Backplane, note the increased room for other I/O I get by switching from the Asante LC NIC to the Plug-n-Play MacSense LC NIC. The crazy standoffs just let menstack it together visualization and sizing.

Thats one SuperMac Adapter, actually acting as a PDS adapter in a NuBus Adapter Card Frame. In the real deal, the frame won't fit when I use the Color Pivot card as the PDS Adapter/riser, but the substitutes work great for now.

[attachment=6]LC-NIC_in_IIsi-Top.2p.jpg[/attachment]

Here's the top view . . .

[attachment=5]LC-NIC_in_IIsi-Side.2p.jpg[/attachment]

. . . a low angle view from the side . . .

[attachment=4]LC-NIC_in_IIsi-Frontside.2p.jpg[/attachment]

. . . another one from the frontside, I should have propped up the second NIC on the Passthru, that's gravity doin' its thing, there is enough clearance even with the adapter card sandwiched in between NIC and SuperMac Card for the extra PDS card.

[attachment=3]LC-NIC_in_IIsi-Oblique.2p.jpg[/attachment]

Finally, here's a higher angle oblique of the assembly, don't have a clue about fitting these critters and the adapter inside an SE/30, but it works out nicely in the IIsi.

______________________________________________________________________________________________

Here's the rough view of the Adpater Card overall, it's pretty good sized do the the offsetting connectors and bits as well as my addition of a wing on the side for relocating the LC NIC's DeclROM, just in case. Not many connections need be jumpered from the Host SuperMac Adapter's pins to make it work, IF it will work at all.

The LC Connector is at the top, the IIsi "Slot" is at the bottom, probably where the control lines missing from the SIP pads in the center will be jumpered, some might be easier to snag from the pass thru connector, dunno, there aren't all that many signals needed. I should have left off the yellow and pink pads from the bottom "connector" and some of the green power and ground connections probably won't be needed as either.

[attachment=2]LC-PDS Adaptation.6.2p.jpg[/attachment]

The paths in the center are vestiges of the traces from my reverse engineering of the SuperMac Adapter. The vast majority of connections are made from headers soldered underneath the unimplemented Zener Diode thru-holes and then soldered or socketed to the adapter board. I can probably get away without de-soldering the LC NIC's connector. By cutting away most of its shroud, the pins can be socketed to or soldered into the matching thru holes in the Adapter PCB.

These two are a set, the key and data from the IIsi/SE/30 PDS are in the top pic. The three red pads on the left end of the diagram are the pads at the far left of the IIsi PDS "connector" where there isn't reallya physical overlap of the cards and all connections would be jumper wires. Even the DeclROM overhang falls short and the existing connector is busy doing its thing anyway.

[attachment=1]LC PDS adaptation.6.Top.2p.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=0]LC PDS adaptation.6.Bot.2p.jpg[/attachment]

If you look at the top diagram, the sections of the LC-Slot signals makes sense, only the far left section, including the 32bit extended slot section is in its actual position. The middle and right end sections are boxed in underneath to truncate the diagram.

If someone wants to take a look at these table to figure out the crap that's ambiguous or just plain off the wall, be . . .

. . . be my guest!

)

#31 Mon, 30 Dec 2013 - 12:41 68kMLA

so i would assume that the ultimate goal to this is to make a PCB that will allow you to install a LC NIC into a se/30, correct

and basically all you really want from this pcb is to act as not only a riser from the SE/30's PDS slot… but also as a patch board that allows PDS to LC PDS electrical compatibility.

i would assume that making a vertical install would be the best.

or were you thinking of asking more of the RISER/PATCH PDS/PDS PCB, did you want it to T off and still run the IIsi Video card as well ?

the next question is… Cost… how much would Such PCB cost… and would it be cost effective?

because i doubt anyone would want to buy one of those IIsi super mac FPU/Riser Cards only to

solder a couple hundred wires

desolder a euro din,

install a LC PDS male din. - for the NIC.

all for a NIC that we are not even sure will work

#32 Mon, 30 Dec 2013 - 15:31 68kMLA

Dunno if that's directed at me or techknight, but I'll answer from my view on it:

so i would assume that the ultimate goal to this is to make a PCB that will allow you to install a LC NIC into a se/30, correct

Heh! Isn't that the reason YOU started this thread about techknight's idea? [

] ]'>

and basically all you really want from this pcb is to act as not only a riser from the SE/30's PDS slot… but also as a patch board that allows PDS to LC PDS electrical compatibility.

Dunno if it will work that way in the SE/30, you'd likely need two due to the thickness of the IIsi assembly. ********

i would assume that making a vertical install would be the best.

You and techknight would have to figure that out, I don't have an SE/30, so I'm taking a whack a possible IIsi installation.

or were you thinking of asking more of the RISER/PATCH PDS/PDS PCB, did you want it to T off and still run the IIsi Video card as well ?

You guys need to figure that out. For the IIsi, the Video Card is the riser. I've taken pictures of a mock-up with the NuBus frame standing in for the IIsi so it's possible to photograph it at all and to show the convenient positioning of RJ-45 and LED panel in the IIsi. To do that, I had to use a second SuperMac riser because the frame and Radius Color Pivot II/IIsi are physically incompatible.

the next question is… Cost… how much would Such PCB cost… and would it be cost effective?

Dunno, don't care, figuring it out is the fun art, but the total would come in at a far more reasonable cost than the going rate for a PDS NIC. That was your point in the OP.

because i doubt anyone would want to buy one of those IIsi super mac FPU/Riser Cards only to
solder a couple hundred wires

Huh? unless you want to do the 32bit extension, there are a MAXIMUM of 19 jumper wires for signals required as pictured along with the oddball power and ground lines where applicable

Besides, if you don't mind soldering just under a hundred wires, you don't even need the card, that's how I'd test the concept, the PCB layout will map out which wires get soldered or wire wrapped where. [

] ]'>

desolder a euro din,

In the case of the NIC, you only need to dremel off the connector"s plastic shroud and solder the adapter directly to its exposed pins

No EuroDin removal involved, unless you want to do the "wrong angle" hack to that $2 card riser card . . .

install a LC PDS male din. - for the NIC.

. . . no installation necessary if the answer above is no. A straight pass thru slot like I have is a great feature, but unnecessary. For most folks, the Video Card and NIC assembly would likely suffice for the SE/30 or IIsi.

all for a NIC that we are not even sure will work

If it looks like the 19 signals I've Isolated don't work out, there's no need to take it any further. [

] ]'>

******* You never got back to me on whether there's room for another card next to the RCPII/IIsi (before you run into the PSU?) a couple of pics of your hack showing the physical relationships would be helpful. If there's room for the LC NIC to lay next to the Video Card in the SE/30, I think I just now figured out how to do the hack with some degree of elegance for either machine! [:O] ]'>

p.s. again, someone has to figure out IF this should work, from that mess of control signals, I haven't got a clue. I'm assuming that any of the /PDSxxxxx signals take precedence over the /CPUxxxxx versions, since they aren't present on the SE/30/IIsi PDS.

p.p.s. I think techknight is busy with the internal grayscale conversion rather than this, which is as it should be! [

] ]'>

#33 Mon, 30 Dec 2013 - 16:13 68kMLA

there aint no room buddy--- 1/8 of a inch at the most. between the card and it touching something (in the front)

Yeah i could see taking a super mac card, and a grinder to the euro din , making it proper size for the LC-NIC to connect.

19 lines well that is almost 40 spots to solder… that sounds feasible/reasonable.

So once someone makes a prototype supermac card… trys it…. at that point we will know wether or not to proceed…

i think this is something i can handle…

as long as there is a easy to follow diagram that shows what wire go to where.. and i would assume we would be murdering the (traces we're patching) on the PCB.

If techknight is working on the Radius IIsi video card SE/30 Grey scale mod… then yes… I would say that does take priority for sure.

#34 Mon, 30 Dec 2013 - 16:40 68kMLA

there aint no room buddy--- 1/8 of a inch at the most. between the card and it touching something (in the front)

Nope, not in front or back, how wide a card could sit beside the RCPII/IIsi in your SE/30 installation? IOW, can you lay the LC NIC card down next to the Pivot card without it hitting the PSU or anything else? How much room is there to spare on the front, back, underneath (looked like zero in your pic) above and to the right side of the LC NIC? Much rides on that information.

Yeah i could see taking a super mac card, and a grinder to the euro din , making it proper size for the LC-NIC to connect.

Not it at all, you take the four walls surrounding the LC Card EuroDin connector's pins off so that you can solder the exposed LC Card pins directly into thru holes for an LC Slot connector on the adapter PCB. These will remain unpopulated to keep the assembly as thin as possible and get around the need to buy any EuroDin connectors.

19 lines well that is almost 40 spots to solder… that sounds feasible/reasonable . . .
. . . as long as there is a easy to follow diagram that shows what wire go to where.. and i would assume we would be murdering the (traces we're patching) on the PCB.

No trace patching at all involved, those jumper wires get soldered into thru holes designed into the Adapter PCB on one end and to the solder cones of the appropriate pins of the PDS connectors on either side of the SuperMac card. [

] ]'>

So once someone makes a prototype supermac card… trys it…. at that point we will know wether or not to proceed…i think this is something i can handle…

Nope, once someone works out the control line translation, then we make a PCB free prototype by soldering a bit less than 100 jumper wire connections and wire wrapping the other ends right onto the NIC's EuroDin connector pins. Annoying, but near zero cost and muuuuuuch faster than laying out the entire PCB. No need to route the 64 address and data lines at all . . . or the control lines for that matter! [

] ]'>

If techknight is working on the Radius IIsi video card SE/30 Grey scale mod… then yes… I would say that does take priority for sure.

Damn straight! [

] ]'>

#35 Mon, 30 Dec 2013 - 16:49 68kMLA

well with all those no's and complexity, I'm officially withdrawn from this project.

#36 Mon, 30 Dec 2013 - 17:00 68kMLA

All those "No's above just mean it's a lot easier than you'd thought, buddy! :approve:

Some new ones: next revision involves no SuperMac Card, no jumper wires and no EuroDin wall hacking at all. ;D

All I need from you would be the dimensions requested above a/o a couple of pics of your great RCPII/IIsi-in-SE/30 hack roughly showing the relationships of the Pivot card with the SE/30's PSU etc.

Back in? :lol:

edit: determination that the remaining control lines are compatible remains paramount. That's the go-no go for prototyping.

#37 Sat, 4 Jan 2014 - 22:31 68kMLA

Anyone have the correct Eurocard/din connectors I need?

I need a right angle male to plug into the SE/30. I forget how many pins, 120?

Then I also need the right angle female 120 pin mate of course. (for my video card extender).

Then I need a 96-pin straight female, or maybe right-angle. I haven't decided yet. I am going to put both the 120 pin and 96 pin eurocards on the same PCB.

#38 Sat, 4 Jan 2014 - 23:19 68kMLA

What you need for the pass thru is a left angle female and you can PM trag. I got several from him, that's what I used to convert the SuperMac PDS Adapter (the wrong angle hack) to a straight up extender board. Ask bbraun where he gets his, he's the only other "wrong angle" hacker I know of, excepting trag, of course.

The connector on the bottom is a true right angle connector. If you use one on the top you wind up needing to hack the keying, no fun.

What size is your adapter and where are you putting the Pivot Card? :?:

#39 Sat, 4 Jan 2014 - 23:20 68kMLA

why would i need a left angle? when i can put the connector on the backside of the PCB.

#40 Sat, 4 Jan 2014 - 23:50 68kMLA

Dunno, but the keying may still not be right, check it out. I know trag's prices are right for the left parts.

I've been playing in AI again:

[attachment=0]Rosetta Stone.000.2p.jpg[/attachment]

#41 Sat, 4 Jan 2014 - 23:53 68kMLA

Yea that could be true. I dunno. Anyway.... I need to find those connectors regardless. Right angles, streights, 96pin/120pin male and females.

#42 Sun, 5 Jan 2014 - 04:22 68kMLA

If you spot any EuroDIN 120 in wire wrap, please let me know, the largest I can find are NuBus size so I'll need to cut two of them down, that means three connectors for two hacks.

Digi-Key has a lot more soldertail EuroDIN-120 in different orientations (direction and sex) in stock than I'd expected.

#43 Sun, 5 Jan 2014 - 04:49 68kMLA

So far, I am designing the 120-pin PDS extender, so i can plug my video card in without lopping things off, bending 90-deg, etc..

Now I didnt make any offset measurements, I just simply through 2 eurodins in place and routed the PCB.

Here is what i have so far.

[attachment=0]expander.png[/attachment]

#44 Sun, 5 Jan 2014 - 05:11 68kMLA

Are you thinking of adding a connector for the LC NIC to that card?

#45 Sun, 5 Jan 2014 - 05:23 68kMLA

Maybe.

But, I may not. I might be using that just as a proper-offset riser, and then ill roll another small PCB to connect to the passthrough on the pivot card, and that will be the crossover-bus adapter card.

ill probably open A24 to A31 as jumper holes, and the IRQ1/2/3 as jumper holes as well. this way, I can swap address lines and set the IRQ for Slot 9 from the LC's E. the pivot has its own jumpers and its default at 9, ill put the LC card on A.

Then i could put a IIe card on B.

But that leaves an open question. how to design the LC board so that the ethernet card sits in there correctly. if i just make a streight-through top mount eurocard adapter, the RJ45 port will face the front, and not the back. lol.

but if i design the adapter that the eurodin goes on the bottom, this means the LC card will mount upside down allowing the RJ45 to face the back.

ugh decisions, decisions....

#46 Sun, 5 Jan 2014 - 06:27 68kMLA

Then i could put a IIe card on B.

awesome!

LC board so that the ethernet card sits in there correctly.

as far as i'm concerned that is the least of your worries.. i couldn't care less how the card fits in there… ill run a 9foot ethernet cable right out of the back!

I mean unless you are trying to be a perfectionist!!!

#47 Sun, 5 Jan 2014 - 06:28 68kMLA

so i can plug my video card in without lopping things off

awesome!

#48 Sun, 5 Jan 2014 - 07:06 68kMLA

I got your good news and your bad news kind of situation here:

Bad news: It's looking to me like we've got to reverse engineer the function of the PowerCache Adapter chip to get the LC NIC to work.

I started out mapping the similarities between the IIsi/SE/30 and the LC Slot NIC and hit a brick wall, so I attacked it from the other side. I've restarted the Rosetta Stone project, couldn't find the spreadsheet, so I'm working it out visually, before I try to locate or rebuild that crazy piece of work.

Good news: It's looking to me like we've got to reverse engineer the function of the PowerCache Adapter chip to get the LC NIC to work. [

] ]'>

The IIci Cache Slot is the key to understanding the differences between Apple's several incompatible variations on the 68030 PDS theme. The machine specific PowerCache PDS adaptations for their IIci Cache Slot Accelerators provide clues as to the differences between these PDS implementations.

I've haven't got a PowerCache Adapter for either machine in question, but I do have one for the LCIII. Since it looks like it's pretty much a straight thru (right angled and flip flopped as it may be) PDS shoehorn with no active components on board, the LCIII's PDS looks to be as similar to the IIci Cache Slot as anything I've seen:

There are only seven tiny SMT resistors on board, eight of the same package type, but capacitors and then five large SMT capacitors that I'm guessing condition the power translation from the five power lines (only three of which are +5V pins, BTW) in the LCIII slot to the eleven Vcc connections on the IIci Slot/PowerCache Receptacle.

That's a total of just twenty capacitors and resistors needed to turn an LCIII slot into a PowerCache/IIci Cache Slot!

Once we've figured that control line translation stuff out it'll be lots of fun designing all manner of crazy adapter concoctions for PowerCache accelerated IIsi/SE/30 boxen. [}

] ]'>

#49 Sun, 5 Jan 2014 - 13:24 68kMLA

Here's to hoping that the NIC's control line requirements won't exceed what's readily available without the conversion!.

#50 Sun, 5 Jan 2014 - 15:11 68kMLA

Why do we have to reverse engineer anything? you lost me.

the connections are the same, only difference is SE/30 has slotspace for 9/A/B, while LC is E. and the LC has slot space addressing in 24bit like the SE, but super slot space/32bit is signified by the single A31 line on the LC. Pretty much the same on the SE/30 except you have all address lines available.

So i dunno what the big deal is?

if anything putting LC PDS cards in an SE/30 should be easier for the fact that the card was designed with more restrictions in mind. Its going the other way around thats difficult. (SE/30 cards in LC).

#51 Sun, 5 Jan 2014 - 16:49 68kMLA

if anything putting LC PDS cards in an SE/30 should be easier for the fact that the card was designed with more restrictions in mind. Its going the other way around thats difficult. (SE/30 cards in LC).

Not necessarily, direction of the conversion is irrelevant, whereas functional requirements are a make or break situation..

It boils down to which of the control lines you need to get the NIC to function. They're not the same between the SE/30 and the LC, whereas they are identical between the IIci and the LC.

If you're lucky, you won't need any of the control signals that differ. If not, you'll need to tweak/synthesize the required control signals from the batch that differ and the ones that don't. That's why the PowerCache adapters are so different. Some need those conversions done in the PALs you see on the SE/30 PowerCache connector.

The requirements for a NIC as opposed to an accelerator are trivial, hopefully the basic set of control signals that are identical in all the of Apple's 68030 PDS variations will suffice.

LCIII <-> IIci = Trivial

LCIII <-> SE/30 = not necessarily trivial, depending upon which control signals are required.

See post with the two diagrams above.

#52 Sun, 5 Jan 2014 - 17:16 68kMLA

I did look at your diagrams. What differs? its all there... Your not thinking 4th dimensionally.

#53 Sun, 5 Jan 2014 - 17:53 68kMLA

Your not thinking 4th dimensionally.

Christopher-Lloyd-signed-Doc-Brown-Future-Visor-Glasses3.jpg

#54 Sun, 5 Jan 2014 - 22:50 68kMLA

AHA! 8-o Thanks for that tidbit, that's what I get for doing work in AI until the wee hours . . . I'm not really supposed to do that.

I went back to look at the data again. Thank goodness I wasn't following it or the discussion linearly. I think I've finally got a handle on what those little black boxes on the PowerCache adapters do to the IIsi, SE/30 and the other PDS Slots which aren't signal for signal compatible with the IIci Cache Slot.

Gotta get probes on one of those suckers ASAP! :approve:

#55 Mon, 6 Jan 2014 - 02:13 68kMLA

Off topic:

The Powerbook Duo is setup for Slot.E as well. hmmmmm. That means I can tie an LC ethernet card directly to the 152 pin docking connector of the PB Duo.

Humm.... I need a dock connector now. Maybe a scrap floppy dock.

#56 Mon, 6 Jan 2014 - 02:51 68kMLA

That's exactly why I've been studying every permutation of the 68030 PDS since about the time the MLA was founded. My choice was adapting the LC version of my NuBus PAS16 for my DuoBoomBoxDock™ entry for a free computer contest over on 'fritter.

I was wondering when someone was going to take this into the Duo realm! Good thinking there, tk!

#57 Mon, 6 Jan 2014 - 02:59 68kMLA

Well in the case of LC to Duo, its not hard. its basically direct-connect. no fiddling with addresses or anything.

#58 Mon, 6 Jan 2014 - 05:12 68kMLA

I dragged out the Mac II PowerCache adapter mcd donated to my project to check out before I buy, borrow or steal any of the other PowerCache adapters. I figure having the discrete control signals coming from 68020 and MMU sockets available for analyzing how they play out in the two PALs on board that particular adapter may tell me more that just jumping straight into the 68030 converters with integrated CPU/MMU signals. Dunno, it's worth a shot and an adapter on hand . . .

Long story short, it's likely the missing cache a/o /cache.hit control lines that are synthesized from other signals in the little black PAL boxen on the IIsi/SE/30 PowerCache Adapters. Not jumping to conclusions, but that's the bet bet from where I'm sitting.

Found a couple of pics over on 'fritter just now: NuBus Mafia

[attachment=1]iisi_pds_adapter-10199.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=0]daystar_what-20222.jpg[/attachment]

....

#59 Mon, 6 Jan 2014 - 05:16 68kMLA

That chip U1 is the decode logic specifically for allocating the cache correctly on the databus, as the cache isnt using nubus space. its more memory mapped

#60 Mon, 6 Jan 2014 - 05:28 68kMLA

Whatever it's doing, that chip's the functional equivalent of the PAL on that $200 .jp PowerCache adapter/PDS Slot Riser for the SE/30!

#61 Mon, 6 Jan 2014 - 05:47 68kMLA

Whatever it's doing, that chip's the functional equivalent of the PAL on that $200 .jp PowerCache adapter/PDS Slot Riser for the SE/30!

Like i said, it puts the Cache in the correct spot on the memory mapped IO.

speaking of which, I may have to design a tiny bit of logic to further decode slot space on the SE/30 to the LC card.

Because the slot space not only works in 24 bit mode, but also in 32 bit mode which moves up a nibble in the address chain. Also, in 32bit mode you have the 16mb space, and the 256mb super slot space, which moves up even to the highest nibble.

So i need to decode all 3 of those to make sure it sees the card in all 3 spaces. But alas, i cant just simply swap address lines, as it will only work in 1 space. as a high space, the address lines swapped become memory addressing lines for the card instead of select lines, which will screw up the read.