System 0.85

You've included a later version of Finder though, so you lose the most interesting features - the cool about box, and the different folder and mac icons. Try instead taking the "RealFinder" app and changing its name and type/creator to be a proper Finder again. You'll need to use one of the original guided tour disks for this too - it was all updated on later ones.

Ken

Ok, i've compiled another version.

http://www.irctunes.co.nr/system085.zip (161kb)

You still need Mini vMac 128k for this one.

Many of the early system disks include a little app that reports the system version. Alternatively, you can look in the System file with ResEdit - the version is contained in a string resource.

Oh ok, thanks for the tip.

Will system 0.85 run on a Quadra?

Unlikely - most Macs are made so that they can't boot an OS older than the one that they originally came with. He said that this particular version only works with the 128k anyway

I tried running it on the Plus and it generally ran badly. Crashing when Finder windows open, etc. It runs well on the 128k and the 512k though.

Here's what I got when I ran it on the Plus Mini vMac:

http://img458.imageshack.us/img458/3340/picture1eq8.png

Oh well. I guess I ned to get the 128k version.

The error icon is cool though, being different.

I got the same thing too - then when I clicked OK in that error message I got this.

The emulation in minivmac is not perfect and some things work on a real Plus that don't work in the emulator. But this system only works with the 64K rom.

The minimum system for any quadra is 7.

I got the same thing too - then when I clicked OK in that error message I got this.

Click to expand...

eww, Vista!!

I am a bit curious if that is infact the oldest released system? I guess it was used to run the guide for a reason, as it is probibly buggy and crash prone to begin with. I wonder what build date that has? most likely sometime in late 1983.

I have been trying to find a copy of the demo that jobs ran at the shareholder meeting. Wonder what system it runs? I read the story on folklore, so I don't know if hertzfeld still has a copy, or if jobs kept and/or destroyed the only copy...

-digital

Why don't you email Steve Jobs and ask him?

eww, Vista!!

Click to expand...

More like "Mmmmm, Vista..."

I guess it was used to run the guide for a reason, as it is probibly buggy and crash prone to begin with.

Click to expand...

What could that reason be though? why didn't they use the same OS as on the 128k system disc?

Why don't you email Steve Jobs and ask him?

Click to expand...

But according to Jobs and "Apple Inc" nothing existed before OS X and G4s. Right? OS 9? What's that?

But according to Jobs and "Apple Inc" nothing existed before OS X and G4s. Right? OS 9? What's that?

Click to expand...

I wonder he would say to the photo I could link of him and Woz in the garage of Woz's parent's house with an Apple I?

I guess it was used to run the guide for a reason, as it is probibly buggy and crash prone to begin with.

Click to expand...

What could that reason be though? why didn't they use the same OS as on the 128k system disc?

Click to expand...

the older system was probibly smaller, so they could fit the guide on the same disk. It could also have been considered stable enough for it's designed purpose. It could have also been that the GM for the guide was needed for duplication before the system software was?

just a few theroies of mine.

-digital

I wonder he would say to the photo I could link of him and Woz in the garage of Woz's parent's house with an Apple I?

Click to expand...

Well it must have been an early iPhone prototype, no?

Was the OS on the system disc for the 128k 1.0 or 0.97? If 1.0, where did the copy of 0.97 come from?

But according to Jobs and "Apple Inc" nothing existed before OS X and G4s. Right? OS 9? What's that?

Click to expand...

What the fark is a G4? Macs use Intel Core 2 Duo CPUs. NOTHING ELSE.

The System 0.85 disk also does the same in my copy of Mini vMac. In the OS X build, I see the "Abnormal Situation" error, press C and it resumes to the desktop.

As for the Macintosh demo at the 1984 Shareholders Meeting, you'd have better luck emailing anyone from the Mac Development Team EXCEPT Steve Jobs. He doesn't respond to anyone without an "@apple.com" email address.

What the fark is a G4? Macs use Intel Core 2 Duo CPUs. NOTHING ELSE.

Click to expand...

Mac Pros have Xenon 5100 series and 5300 series CPUs. Also, last I checked wasn't there still a CoreDuo Mac?

The System 0.85 disk also does the same in my copy of Mini vMac. In the OS X build, I see the "Abnormal Situation" error, press C and it resumes to the desktop.

Click to expand...

I got the same abnormal situation error. I tried to click OK, but I got an emty, flickering error box. I had to control-q-y it to death. This is the OS X version of the Plus variant, btw.

I probibly should not mention this, but I don't have the 128k rom file, or else I would try it in that. I used copyroms on my personal Macintosh Plus to get the rom file to run Mini vMac. Normally, it runs a 80mb hard drive image with system 7.5.5 (highly vmac customized), with about a million games in it. It's about all I use it wor. Best dark castle platform, ever.

oh, and Macjunky, your right. The Mac Mini is still lagging behind, it only has the Core Duo (Core 1 Duo?) chip in it. All of the rest of apple's current line have Mermon C2D chips. We may see them move to the just released Santa Rosa C2D in a bit, the other laptop companies just did it this past week en masse.

-digital

Maybe I can give away this version of the ROM, it seems to be fairly open but it works...

http://www.irctunes.co.nr/Mac128K.zip

It was used because the tour crashed under the release system and they didnt have time to fix it.

wow, this is an odd system. I would say it is a late beta version. diffrent about box, the training menu, diffrent icons, diffrent dialog box, the odd way it opens and closes windows, the diffrent clock DA, and what appears to be the Key Caps app crashing when I open it.

odd system version. someone might want to email hertzfield and let him know our discovery.

-digital

Here's some screenshots for those of you that can't get it running:

Here's the blank desktop. Note the old floppy icons and the Training menu:

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/3550/picture1dw9.png

Here's the Startup Disk as shown from The Finder. Note the old "System Files" icons showing what appears to me a Macintosh with a Twiggy floppy drive, and the more rounded folder. Also note that The Finder isn't yet designated as one of the "System Files". Also note that there is no "System Folder" yet, and the "System Files" are just stuck in the root of the drive. This is because the folders in the old Macintosh File System were a farce. It was a one-level filesystem. The folders were illusions created by The Finder. Also note that the scroll bars in this early Finder don't white out when there's nothing to scroll to. The little scroll blocks stay there all the time.:

http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/6711/picture2mb5.png

Here's the "About the Finder" Dialog. Note the different picture, and the date of December 4, 1983:

http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/2905/picture3qs1.png

This is what a "Get Info" window looks like. The only difference here is that it doesn't show the time of creation:

http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/1012/picture4ca7.png

This is the File Menu. It's the same as in the shipping version of System 1, as are the Edit and View menus:

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/9021/picture5vd2.png

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/1770/picture6iy3.png

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/5715/picture7bl3.png

Here's the Special Menu. Note the lack of the Erase Disk and Set Startup options:

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/1990/picture8zx9.png

The Training Menu seems to have only one purpose; to reset The Finder:

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/2811/picture9qf5.png

Here's a little dialog box. The yelling face is kinda different, as is the layout and wording. Also, as a side note, as you click on different things that The Finder can't open, it beeps more at you. One beep the first time, two beeps the second time... It does this up to three beeps, and then just keeps beeping at you three times:

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/9093/picture10ob9.png

Here's the Apple Menu, showing the DA's:

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/6338/picture11ae1.png

Here's the Clock DA. It's radically different, and actually looks more like it belongs on a Lisa:

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/6663/picture12nw5.png

Here's the Calculator. Note the different arrangement of the buttons:

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/1230/picture13kb8.png

Key Caps seems to crash and take down the entire system when it is launched:

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/6219/picture14ex1.png

The Puzzle DA is there and exactly the same:

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/7439/picture15cq6.png

The NotePad DA is there and exactly the same:

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/7775/picture16rk8.png

The Scrapbook DA seems to be non-functional. Perhaps that's why it says "This space for rent..." in it :

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/7088/picture17sb7.png

And of course, the famous Control Panel:

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/5008/picture18eo3.png

And there you have it! That's the system that started the system that started it all!

If you can, try "Mousing Around" on the disk... Really fun!

http://s32.photobucket.com/albums/d28/Patrickool93/?action=view&current=Picture1-9.png

That's after Key Caps crashes

http://s32.photobucket.com/albums/d28/Patrickool93/?action=view&current=Picture3-5.png

lol, I just though it was funny

http://s32.photobucket.com/albums/d28/Patrickool93/?action=view&current=Picture1-9.pngThat's after Key Caps crashes

Click to expand...

I've extended my analysis a bit

Are you running that in the 128k version of Mini vMac? On mine, it just brings up a blank dialog box and freezes. It doesn't put all that garbage up on the screen.

I ran the first version fine, but when I try the second version (the one with the beta Finder) it puts up the "abnormal situation" message when it starts up. I press C to continue and it's fine after that, except there is an "unknown disk" on the Mac's desktop as well as the "system 0.87" disk - what's going on there?

It does the same thing for me. It's no major issue, probably just a few bugs. Notice that the unknown disk is only 200 and it's ghosted.

What does the ghosting of the unknown disk mean?

So which version is the version that runs when you use the Guided Tour disk? The one with this beta Finder, or the first download in the topic that has Finder 1.0?

Yes, I'm using 128k rom and all that..

I got the opened dialog, but then I did something else too, I'm trying to replicate it...

That ghost disk appears when you run it on a real 128K mac as well. And so does the Key Caps crash. The about box is interesting because it is actually drawn up using quickdraw rather than being a PICT resource. And, to bring up something lost from the old forums, there's a grim reaper icon in the Finder, but I couldn't find anything in the code that referenced it :-(

Here's the google cache for the old thread - may or may not work...

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:AvCiQpwm-X8J:68kmla.org/viewtopic.php%3Ft%3D8223%26view%3Dprevious%26sid%3Dca34b2a035a9354248b85926d6cb9c55+%22System+0.85%22+%22Grim+Reaper%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&client=firefox-a

Ken

On my version of Mini vMac 128k, you can very briefly see "Mounting Mousing Around on the Desktop" and the same for "AMAZING". Maybe it was supposed to mount to the Unknown Disk.

However, both Mousing Around and Amazing still work.

Hey, just reporting I'm getting both 404 and 500 errors when I try to download the System .zip files in the first few posts...

Thx.

The server went through a reformat and restore a week ago, and the files

were lost. Since I assumed the thread was dead I just deleted it... now I

need to go back through my local drives and find it.

If I do, i'll let you know and post up a link.

EDIT: Spoke too soon, it was there on my (incredibly messy) desktop. The link should work again.

http://www.irctunes.co.nr/system085.zip

Can anybody update the links of system 0.85 and a Mac 128k ROM, I would like to have !

I have another one bundled at http://mac.profusehost.net/crosswire/mac.zip

I need to find a more permanent home for it.

That ghost disk appears when you run it on a real 128K mac as well.

Click to expand...

See this: Macintosh System Update insert. Dated January 25, 1984.

Evidently the ghost disk was originally used to copy files in the one-disk system. e.g. drag your files to the unknown disk image and you are prompted to insert the disk you want to copy to, then the unknown disk becomes whatever disk you insert and the files copy, most likely the disk was auto-ejected when finished and the unknown disk returned to the desktop. Obviously this was a bad idea they quickly changed.[/url]

It behaves like the trash in my copy of System 0.85 - so beware what you put in there! (So it will be deleted on launch of another application.) Maybe that's a side affect of whatever caching it used for this other copying behaviour. Will see what happens if I insert another disk when I get home.

Also, on System 0.85 it seems the scrollbars don't white out when the entire window contents are displayed.

Someone mentioned earlier that Scrapbook appeared non-functional, but it works for me.

Ken

That note above is very interesting actually. Is there a copy of the referenced "Macintosh, your owner's guide" scanned online somewhere? I'd like to read the "Alternate folder" or "Unknown folder" references mentioned in particular.

A few people in another thread listing their macs mention they have the manual. How about providing a scan for the rest of us? A lot of the Apple II stuff is available this way, and almost everything for TRS-80, but there seems to be a dearth of Macintosh material... :-(

Yes and so would I like to see the original manual, but to date I have not seen a copy of this manual which was replaced by a newer version a shortly after Macintosh shipped, even before 1.1 came out in April. So not many to be had.

As for putting something in the Unknown Disk, my experience was it did indeed disappear like the trash after a restart, but it reappeared in its original location and was not deleted. The nearest I can figure out, is you would drag the files you wanted to copy to it, eject your source disk, insert the copy-to disk and drag the files out of the Unknown Folder and into your copy disk. Basically the unknown folder seems to act as a RAM cache, holding the files in memory until you copy them somewhere else. Of course on a 128K, I doubt it held much before you had to start swapping disks though.

Click here to read >

As for the Macintosh demo at the 1984 Shareholders Meeting ....

Click to expand...

I wrote about that very topic ! lol

Click here ta read it > "Macintosh Unveiling" Demo Floppy"

... you'd have better luck emailing anyone from the Mac Development Team ....

Click to expand...

Someone else also broached that idea, too

Andy Herzfeld was contacted via email & responded ....

Sorry, I used to have floppies for the intro demo and the window manager demo

(ie, bouncing pepsis) but I misplaced them many years ago.

Sorry I couldn't help you.

... EXCEPT Steve Jobs. He doesn't respond to anyone without an "@apple.com" email address.

Click to expand...

That's the response I got. lol

Click here to read > "Steve Jobs's eMail Address"

:b&w:

Someone else also broached that idea, too

Click to expand...

... prepare your best advocates, cause I will sue you for using unathorised material from me ... and that someone has a name

LOL

I'm amazed at seeing the Tour Disc accessed in this way. It's great seeing it again. But someone just named the disc .85. I recall it should be named Tour. Notice nowhere in the Get Info does it give you a version of .xx anything. To the best of my knowledge this did not exist. It was just versioned "Macintosh Software". No version number. Understand that the Tour Disc was a type of autoplay event. You're not meant to interact with the Special OS on that disc the way that you are using the emulator. It's a special version only for making the tour work. So you are going to see inconsistencies. When you opened the box for your Macintosh(128k) there where two audio cassette tapes. The first one helped you unpack and setup your mac. The second tape gave instructions about how to unpack the discs and gave strict instructions. There was calming piano music as the mac booted. To take each tour one clicked on the tour icon and then synchronized the audio on the tape with the animations on the screen by clicking the mouse when you heard the 3rd tone. As far as I know that was the very first multimedia presentation ever given.

The System is a perfectly normal System, and it's version number is accessible just as for the later Systems - and reports as 0.85. The Finder is also on the disk, but named RealFinder and has only minor changes from a true standalone Finder (e.g. a "Quit" menu that can be fairly easily hacked away). A google search for "System 0.85" will bring up, among other things, my page discussing this at http://school.anhb.uwa.edu.au/personalpages/kwessen/web/stories/EarlyMacStories.html#system085.

Ken

The System is a perfectly normal System, and it's version number is accessible just as for the later Systems - and reports as 0.85.

Click to expand...

Yes, but you fail to say how ... you cannot use Get Info to get the System version. There is a small freeware app called SysVersion just for this purpose on the early systems that did not otherwise have a way to report it, which may or may not be able to locate the MGT .85 version since it is kept in a different resource than .97 and up. The other way to do it is with ResEdit and look at the original resource code where it is clearly stated.

As Kallikak correctly states, you have to break into the MGT System in order to run such applications on it, as it has been copy protected by Apple specifically to keep people from accidentally using it as a standalone system.

The link to disk image is gone!

I wonder why (look at the date of the posting)

http://www.box.net/shared/herie8yerq

Really need to get this out there on a few mirrors. I don't normally need to change my box.net contents, but I can't guarantee it.

Hey, thanks iMac600.

http://www.box.net/shared/herie8yerq
Really need to get this out there on a few mirrors. I don't normally need to change my box.net contents, but I can't guarantee it.

Click to expand...

Alright, here you go: http://www.hurtley.info/Media/system085.zip (Yes, "Media" is my catch-all directory.)

It's on Vault too.