Thread
Somebody has to buy this NOW
Well now this is driving me nuts.. I used to have a schematic of the grayscale adapter on my hard drive but now I can't find it. there WAS a link to it on 68kmla but it was lost when the server crashed. anybody else remember it or save it, or find it in the google cache?
Be prepare to get even more annoyed.
Unbelievable. Totally unbelievable. It's almost as if this seller viewed this thread first and then decided to hock his logic board for the highest price possible! It's also yet another example of a seller with 100% feedback and a very high score at that. So again, feedback scores alone don't tell the whole story.
I only noticed this particular auction because I've been looking for an SE/30 logic board for AGES and happened to find it this morning. But regardless of my desire to have one, I refuse to pay that -- especially when one considers I would have to pay USPS air mail rates to get it shipped to me in Japan! But the seller, like so many others, chooses only the elite country of the US-of-A to sell to, so I am excluded anyway (regardless of the fact I am a US citizen who just happens to live outside "the land of the free.")
That wont sell....
Now if it were started as an auction at 99 cents, it would surely be bid up that high. But with buy it now? people won't bite...
Now if it were started as an auction at 99 cents, it would surely be bid up that high. But with buy it now? people won't bite...
The frightful and very disturbing thing is, sometimes people DO bid in such foolish ways. Whether or not they will on this auction is to be determined in a few days' time. But tragically, such foolish bidding only works to reinforce the misnomer that "all classic Mac bidders are stupid and gullible" in the minds of less honest sellers (which appears to be majority of sellers, I must sadly report). The sheer ignorance of many bidders has a negative price impact on us all.
With that said, it very well could be the case that the seller will wise up to market driven forces if there are no bidders when the auction closes. I've seen this before. The seller then waits a couple days and relists at a lower price. The auction then fails to sell again and he relists again and sometimes again until his price is more in line with the auctual value of the item being sold. It is usually at that time that the intelligent among us place our bids! (Myself included.)
With that said, it very well could be the case that the seller will wise up to market driven forces if there are no bidders when the auction closes. I've seen this before. The seller then waits a couple days and relists at a lower price. The auction then fails to sell again and he relists again and sometimes again until his price is more in line with the auctual value of the item being sold. It is usually at that time that the intelligent among us place our bids! (Myself included.)
For what it's worth, all the items from that seller seem to be crazily overpriced. Maybe they're just stupid.
I've actually seen quite a number of sellers like this, Tyler. These blood thirsty sellers have EBAY stores where every single Mac item is outrageously priced. These kind of sellers feed on the newbies and ignorant Mac users, which is what I was trying to describe in my last post.
Some people (who often do not participate in forums like this one), are simply unaware of how much something is worth. And these folks occasionally have a sudden urge for something nostalgic and they pay through the nose to sellers like this one to get it.
If there were not buyers like that, these sellers would either go out of business or lower their prices. The fact these overpriced auctions remain on EBAY though is evidence that some people ignorantly bid and pay such prices. And again, this is sad for all of us who may be interested in items like a logic board from time to time, albeit at a reasonable price.
One cannot say that EBAY is "all bad" because all of us have purchased at least one item off it for a good price, myself included. It simply gets depressing to see the vast majority of deals selling for prices that are far too high, especially now that USPS has raised its prices (no more ocean shipping for people like me who live outside the US).
Some people (who often do not participate in forums like this one), are simply unaware of how much something is worth. And these folks occasionally have a sudden urge for something nostalgic and they pay through the nose to sellers like this one to get it.
If there were not buyers like that, these sellers would either go out of business or lower their prices. The fact these overpriced auctions remain on EBAY though is evidence that some people ignorantly bid and pay such prices. And again, this is sad for all of us who may be interested in items like a logic board from time to time, albeit at a reasonable price.
One cannot say that EBAY is "all bad" because all of us have purchased at least one item off it for a good price, myself included. It simply gets depressing to see the vast majority of deals selling for prices that are far too high, especially now that USPS has raised its prices (no more ocean shipping for people like me who live outside the US).
Surely you could get an entire SE/30 for far less than $99 though, no? The other compacts don't seem to be worth anything, are SE/30s really worth that much in comparison?
Personally I think eBay is great - I don't know about vintage Mac bits, as I don't really use it for that kind of thing, but for other stuff you can get real bargains on there, and high street stores can't compete with the prices available on eBay. I don't see that overpriced items are a bad thing really - it's just like traditional shops in that some are overpriced while others sell identical items much cheaper - it's up to the buyer to shop around and they should know that.
Trust me. Once you start using EBAY "for that kind of thing" (to buy mostly classic Mac items), you suddenly gain a different perspective and come to see first hand what my posts in this thread are talking about.
It's really a different world on EBAY when comparing Apple merchandise to everything else. A lot of unethical sellers flock to the Apple section of EBAY because they know there are ignorant Mac loving buyers out there who will pay virtually anything to get what they want.
There have been several recent cases wherein processor upgrades for 68K Macs have been unrealistically priced at the start. Most often they have not sold, been relisted at the same price and still not sold, and so on. Then there have been other listings of upgrade cards that started unrealistically, but were reduced in starting price at each relisting until they reached the level of attractiveness to sell. It depends somewhat on the Mac savviness of the seller, and whether realism catches up with greed.
If the SE/30 logic board above had metal RAM clips, a socketted CPU and a re-cap. job it could be worth the money. But it hasn't/aint.
de
If the SE/30 logic board above had metal RAM clips, a socketted CPU and a re-cap. job it could be worth the money. But it hasn't/aint.
de
Untested and AS/IS = tested and found to be broken. I don't even bother with most auctions like that unless it contains something that can be salvaged that is worth the price paid.There is a lot of classic Mac merchandise being sold as "untested" and/or "AS/IS" despite the fact many of these sellers have it within their means to test. These same sellers are of the type who refuse to answer many questions and/or have lackluster photos, or even foolish misspellings in their listing. These types drive me nuts!
But I completely agree that common items found on EBAY often cost too much. And I absolutely hate it when a seller makes ignorant claims such as citing a Mac Plus as being "rare." Indeed, that adjective should be banned from 99% of all listings. It's a rare case when I truly see something "rare"! And folks, any item you see nearly every day on EBAY (like a Mac 128k) cannot be defined as "rare." Grayscale video for the SE/30 though is more true to the definition of "rare" than most other items I've seen on EBAY.
Now won't one of you out there just build us a $100 copy of the video board and grayscale card and drivers so we can all enjoy grayscale?!
True. Hence back to the ignorance of the buyers.
The feedback is in for this auction and the buyer is happy. I didn't think it was fraud but the guy certainly wasn't forthcoming in his ad and got really snippy. Check out the stuff the buyer has bought and sold recently. Come on, is it someone on here?
cangrande
p.s. I still have my Xceed w/grayscale, anyone want to make an offer? I will take as many pictures as you like and I won't be a jerk, I promise
p.p.s. Are socketed motherboards desirable? I don't have any upgrades, but one of the SE/30 logic boards is socketed. Do noninstalled upgrades ever come up for sale?
cangrande
p.s. I still have my Xceed w/grayscale, anyone want to make an offer? I will take as many pictures as you like and I won't be a jerk, I promise
p.p.s. Are socketed motherboards desirable? I don't have any upgrades, but one of the SE/30 logic boards is socketed. Do noninstalled upgrades ever come up for sale?
Socketed motherboards ARE desirable because they are rare. Socketed upgrades seem to be even rarer, though. But nonetheless a working, socketed motherboard without an upgrade would get quite a bit more than a non socketed one in a traditional auction.
Having it re-capped would also increase the value, but you would also run the risk of frying it.
Having it re-capped would also increase the value, but you would also run the risk of frying it.
In most cases, I would agree with you. But for the first time ever in my years on EBAY, I landed a brand new item for $0.99 (plus shipping to Japan)! I must say that I was overjoyed because it never fails that some nut will bid up the price, and although I will win it in the end, I usually have to pay a lot more. But this time, I watched the auction all the way to the last 30 seconds and because no one bid, I manually "snipped it" and got the $0.99 opening price. Since there's no ocean shipping to Japan anymore (shame on you USPS!), I had to air mail it over here for $45. But considering the total I've paid for analog boards like this in the past, it was a good deal.
This was a Mac Plus Platinum analog board that I had been searching for for years. I was brand new, still in the original Apple Service box with the original anti-static wrap (unbroken seal) and foam cushions and paperwork. The buyer sold it "AS IS/UNTESTED" for two reasons: because he lacked the means to test it (he acquired many Apple Service boxes from another source) and he didn't want to open it (otherwise he couldn't sell it as "unopened.")
This seller put up decent photos and his listing was descriptive enough to where I didn't need to ask questions prior to bidding. I also saw he shipped "worldwide," which meant I didn't need to beg the seller to include Japan.
All said it was a good deal, even though it was sold "AS IS/ UNTESTED." So you have to be careful with items like that, and often you have to ask questions (if the listing lacks details), but sometimes there is a reason for that description and it makes logical sense. But again, I agree that many EBAY sellers are unethical in their tactics and they sell something "AS IS/UNTESTED" even though they can and maybe have tested it, knowing its bad.
cangrande, I've been searching for a working SE/30 logic board for a long time. I've not been able to find one on EBAY over the past couple years for a decent price (because one person in this thread has been buying them all up!
I don't need socketed (because I don't want to pay extra for it), and I can re-cap myself. But in light of USPS shipping charges now, I can't pay as much for one as I used to be willing to. However, I would be interested in one.As to your grayscale setup, I'm certain your price would be out of my league. However, if it was reasonable then of course I would be interested. And I could then shoot some photos to add to my Flickr Collection and post some detailed reports about it here (which no other owner of a grayscale setup has ever done for this classic Mac community).
I am not a "collector" in name, but rather a Mac enthusiast who is willing to share findings with the community. I do it only because I would like to see others do it. I like to see clear, sharp photos of old Mac stuff, and I like to read interesting reports about them too. Sadly, we don't see a lot of this on Low End Mac, so some of us must post it in forums like this!
So anyway, I am more than happy to make some of your items famous on the net, if you decide you wish to part with them.
Trust me, we're better off without surface mail. It was very unreliable and slow, even though it was cheap.In most cases, I would agree with you. But for the first time ever in my years on EBAY, I landed a brand new item for $0.99 (plus shipping to Japan)! I must say that I was overjoyed because it never fails that some nut will bid up the price, and although I will win it in the end, I usually have to pay a lot more. But this time, I watched the auction all the way to the last 30 seconds and because no one bid, I manually "snipped it" and got the $0.99 opening price. Since there's no ocean shipping to Japan anymore (shame on you USPS!), I had to air mail it over here for $45. But considering the total I've paid for analog boards like this in the past, it was a good deal.
This was a Mac Plus Platinum analog board that I had been searching for for years. I was brand new, still in the original Apple Service box with the original anti-static wrap (unbroken seal) and foam cushions and paperwork. The buyer sold it "AS IS/UNTESTED" for two reasons: because he lacked the means to test it (he acquired many Apple Service boxes from another source) and he didn't want to open it (otherwise he couldn't sell it as "unopened.")
This seller put up decent photos and his listing was descriptive enough to where I didn't need to ask questions prior to bidding. I also saw he shipped "worldwide," which meant I didn't need to beg the seller to include Japan.
All said it was a good deal, even though it was sold "AS IS/ UNTESTED." So you have to be careful with items like that, and often you have to ask questions (if the listing lacks details), but sometimes there is a reason for that description and it makes logical sense. But again, I agree that many EBAY sellers are unethical in their tactics and they sell something "AS IS/UNTESTED" even though they can and maybe have tested it, knowing its bad.
cangrande, I've been searching for a working SE/30 logic board for a long time. I've not been able to find one on EBAY over the past couple years for a decent price (because one person in this thread has been buying them all up!
As to your grayscale setup, I'm certain your price would be out of my league. However, if it was reasonable then of course I would be interested. And I could then shoot some photos to add to my Flickr Collection and post some detailed reports about it here (which no other owner of a grayscale setup has ever done for this classic Mac community).
I am not a "collector" in name, but rather a Mac enthusiast who is willing to share findings with the community. I do it only because I would like to see others do it. I like to see clear, sharp photos of old Mac stuff, and I like to read interesting reports about them too. Sadly, we don't see a lot of this on Low End Mac, so some of us must post it in forums like this!
So anyway, I am more than happy to make some of your items famous on the net, if you decide you wish to part with them.
Well, I for one mourn the loss of surface mail. If they could make a low cost version of air mail to be just as cheap, then I would side with you right away, in full agreement! But the fact remains that I would never have been able to afford (nor would I have wanted to) some of the great Mac equipment I've bought off EBAY and had shipped to me via Ocean through the years. To ship a complete system, it would often cost me in excess of US$70 even by ocean. The air freight charges would have been on order of $250. And consider the cost of some of these items on EBAY, freight charges really hit you hard! (Especially when you live in Japan like I do.) I also shipped a lot of big, heavy books over by ocean. Try that via AIR and you go the poor house right away (or go without your books).
No, I never liked the lack of package tracking. Nor did I get my jollies off waiting 1.5 to 2 months for a box. But you see, I was willing to wait for a discount. That's the point. I was willing to make a sacrifice so I wouldn't have to pay higher shipping charges. And maybe I was lucky, but I never had a package lost either. I had some that were banged up pretty good, but you learn how to ship things over time. And you learn how to educate EBAY sellers on how to properly pack things for you. With my instructions, I never had a seller complain nor a box come through so damaged the contents were broken or scratch or otherwise unusable.
I always made that sacrifice when packages were big. For example, I had entire BBQ sets, baby carriages and other such items shipped to me by surface. I would have never, ever considered shipping those things by AIR! Never! It's just too expensive. Why? Because think about the cost of the item, THEN add shipping to that. It gets expensive. Another thing that impacts you is the exchange rate too. So you see why some people like me want to save money where possible. And it used to be possible on shipping. Not anymore, sadly.
No, I never liked the lack of package tracking. Nor did I get my jollies off waiting 1.5 to 2 months for a box. But you see, I was willing to wait for a discount. That's the point. I was willing to make a sacrifice so I wouldn't have to pay higher shipping charges. And maybe I was lucky, but I never had a package lost either. I had some that were banged up pretty good, but you learn how to ship things over time. And you learn how to educate EBAY sellers on how to properly pack things for you. With my instructions, I never had a seller complain nor a box come through so damaged the contents were broken or scratch or otherwise unusable.
I always made that sacrifice when packages were big. For example, I had entire BBQ sets, baby carriages and other such items shipped to me by surface. I would have never, ever considered shipping those things by AIR! Never! It's just too expensive. Why? Because think about the cost of the item, THEN add shipping to that. It gets expensive. Another thing that impacts you is the exchange rate too. So you see why some people like me want to save money where possible. And it used to be possible on shipping. Not anymore, sadly.
I should not have had the revised Inside Macintosh (9vv) without sea-mail. But sea-mail was a two-edged sword. One package never arrived, always supposing that the lack-lustre seller thought to post it at all. Out of more than 750 eBay purchases I have consciously opted for sea-mail only seven times: range 50-89 days, with an average of 76 days. And then there have been the occasions when USPS sent packages, paid at airmail rates, by sea.
de
It looks like a fan speed controller.
I don't know about $100. A circuit board is going to cost $10 - $20 in quantities of 200. The PDS connector will be about $5 - $7. A Xilinx FPGA to do most of the heavy lifting will run around $15 - $20. Some memory to use as GRAM (Graphics RAM) will be another $5 - $20 (uncertainty there because of sooooo many price/performance trade-offs). DACs will run another $5 - $15 (uncertainty because I haven't researched DACs much). Then miscellaneous connectors for video out (support for external monitor), that back of the CRT connector (is that still available?) and cable harness plugs and receptacles will probably add another $20. Then add in miscellaneous components such as a few PLDs to sort out some of the PDS addressing and caps and resistors and such for another $5 - $10.Grayscale video for the SE/30 though is more true to the definition of "rare" than most other items I've seen on EBAY.
Now won't one of you out there just build us a $100 copy of the video board and grayscale card and drivers so we can all enjoy grayscale?!
So you get a minimum *Parts* cost of $65 and a high end of $112 per unit. And that's just for parts. No assembly or reimbursement for skull sweat and development. And there will be costs for development, such as an FPGA development kit for $100 - $200. Some custom circuit boards to interface the FPGA development board to the PDS slot and some more circuit boards for prototypes. Each set of test/prototype circuit boards will cost about $200.
So material costs for development will easily reach $1000. And the material costs in the first paragraph are for 100 or 200 units, so one is looking at investing $6500 - $22,400 up front for materials before selling a unit.
I'm not sure one could even make it pay with those numbers. The problem is that there may not even be 100 people willing to pay $100 per upgrade.
When I built and sold 16 MB SIMMs for the IIFX, I was able to sell 28 sets before the price dropped below $50 per set of four SIMMs. Are there four to eight times as many folks interested in upgrades for the SE/30 as there are for the IIfx?
You could cut some of the costs from my estimate a little, because I've assumed a fairly powerful FPGA to allow very fast work and gates available for hardware based Quickdraw acceleration. And I've assumed 4 - 8 MB of GRAM so that a large external monitor can be supported in millions of colors as well as the internal grayscale at 256 shades.
But those two components are not that huge a percentage of the cost and they can't be shrunk tremendously (see FPGA I/O pin discussion below). Other parts are necessities and simply cannot be discarded. One must have a PDS connector and connectors to the CRT yoke and for the external monitor and cable harness connectors.
The PLDs to help with the addressing are not strictly necessary; that work can easily be done inside the FPGA. Here's the problem. Once you get beyond about 150 I/O pins on an FPGA the only package available is BGA. I can't solder BGAs at home and paying someone else to do so in small quantities is very expensive. So we're limited to about 150 I/O pins (that's a 208 pin total package) for the FPGA.
There are around 96 or 97 relevant pins on the PDS slot. Thirty-two of which are addressing pins and another thirty-two of which are data pins. You can cut out several of the addressing pins by letting a PLD handle the high order addressing bits. Your video card is only being addressed for one value of some number of the high order bits, so a PLD can watch those address bits for the value and signal accordingly.
Then there are some number of pins needed to output the data to the digital to analog (DAC) converters which signal the CRT(s). This number could range from 24 pins (full parallel output of all color data) to three pins (serial output of each color separately). With a fast FPGA and fast GRAM, this can probably be kept to three pins. Or four pins when you add the output to the grayscale adapter.
There may be other digital output pins needed to drive the CRT, but I'm not that well educated yet.
Then you need an interface to the GRAM which could use as many as 23 address pins (8 megabytes) plus 24 or 32 data pins.
So you've got 90 (PDS) + 4 (DAC) + 23 + 24 I/O pins needed on the FPGA which is about 140 I/O pins. Plus there are probably a few more needed for the display output that I just don't know about yet. Oh and we didn't allow anything for WE, CE, OE or RS on the GRAM, nor for an interface to a firmware container (EEPROM or Flash).
I don't know how Micron managed with 100 pins on their Exceed chip. IIRC it has only 100 pins on the main chip. On the other hand there are quite a few PLDs on the board. Also, one could use a combined data bus for both the PDS slot and the GRAM and use muxes with enable signals to avoid signal interference. But that has problems if your memory bus clock speed is much different from your PDS bus clock speed (16 MHz.).
Okay, I've wandered off of cost and am just babbling about design trade offs and issues. I'd be happy to read any additions or comments.
Was that the fellow on the Classic Computers email list? Have you ever heard back from him. I haven't heard in a while. I should email him.I have talked to the Micron Engineer who has the plans for those boards, waiting to hear when he is shipping them over (unless something happened). Was supposed to get all kind of docs/drivers/cards from him.
If I do get the schematics I will post them all. So maybe somebody could make a few hundred and send me one.
Nope havn't heard back (or seen him on the list either).