Thread
Using Modern Hard Drives on Old Macs?
Yeah i'm slightly lost, Also wondering why the adaptors we bought are in need of modification.
I think the jumpers need to be set up correctly, hopefully trag or someone will jump in and figure out the proper configuration.
I'm still editing, BTW. :lol:
I'm still editing, BTW. :lol:
alright well for the time being my solution is the $5 dollar external scsi terminator, for those that do not have a external scsi device to plug in for termination.
in the mean time, I remember coming across a SCSI SCA to 50pin and the LVD 160+ style,(back in 2005) IT also had spots to insert those 3 narrow resistor packs, (for termination) right next to the 50 pin header, Just like on the older scsi hd's i will try to get my hands on those adaptors.
I am waiting for input from MinerAI get a chance to disconnect his zip to see if his still boots, Also waiting to hear input from CC_333 to see how his drive is working, Also original Thread OP bought one. Also Marky.
I thought i had developed a ingenious way of sending small electronic items USPS First Class Mail.
I guess I'll see if/when CC_333 and Marky receive their drives.
I know Juror22 has not received his IIci cache card yet, and that is troubling to me.
Anyways worse comes to worse i will have to send out the Cache card and the 2 Hard drives again, using a USPS Approved mailing solution.
Basically I took some Thin dense foam, folded it, placed the item in the fold and taped up the 3 sides, Kinda looked like a envelope or maybe a parcel, i still paid for First Class Parcel anyways.
in the mean time, I remember coming across a SCSI SCA to 50pin and the LVD 160+ style,(back in 2005) IT also had spots to insert those 3 narrow resistor packs, (for termination) right next to the 50 pin header, Just like on the older scsi hd's i will try to get my hands on those adaptors.
I am waiting for input from MinerAI get a chance to disconnect his zip to see if his still boots, Also waiting to hear input from CC_333 to see how his drive is working, Also original Thread OP bought one. Also Marky.
I thought i had developed a ingenious way of sending small electronic items USPS First Class Mail.
I guess I'll see if/when CC_333 and Marky receive their drives.
I know Juror22 has not received his IIci cache card yet, and that is troubling to me.
Anyways worse comes to worse i will have to send out the Cache card and the 2 Hard drives again, using a USPS Approved mailing solution.
Basically I took some Thin dense foam, folded it, placed the item in the fold and taped up the 3 sides, Kinda looked like a envelope or maybe a parcel, i still paid for First Class Parcel anyways.
As I wrote a while back, do not enable Termination Power. Unless you are using a Macintosh Plus, or one of a few of the PowerBooks, the Macintosh provides Termination Power. Enabling Termination Power from your drives (or adapter) can cause voltage contention issues as the voltage regulators vie to bring the termination power voltage to the exact level to which each one is set. Pull the TPR jumpers.
Edit: I may have written that a while back, but apparently, it wasn't in this thread. Apologies for the snitty tone.
As far as termination goes, you can't get it. As I've written before, with these cheap adapters, you can never terminate the upper 8 pins. This may not matter in a 50 pin adapted situation, but then again, it might.
jt's attempt with a ribbon cable terminator should get you as close as you're going to get. I don't know why that didn't work, unless he ran that test with the spin-up delay jumper still in position. You should not need an external terminator, as the logic board is meant to supply termination when nothing is connected externally.
Make sure both Start Delay and Remote Start are unjumpered.
SCSI Voodoo happens when you misconfigure a SCSI chain, it works for a while (or in one instance) and then when you do it again, it doesn't work.
Edit: I may have written that a while back, but apparently, it wasn't in this thread. Apologies for the snitty tone.
As far as termination goes, you can't get it. As I've written before, with these cheap adapters, you can never terminate the upper 8 pins. This may not matter in a 50 pin adapted situation, but then again, it might.
jt's attempt with a ribbon cable terminator should get you as close as you're going to get. I don't know why that didn't work, unless he ran that test with the spin-up delay jumper still in position. You should not need an external terminator, as the logic board is meant to supply termination when nothing is connected externally.
Make sure both Start Delay and Remote Start are unjumpered.
SCSI Voodoo happens when you misconfigure a SCSI chain, it works for a while (or in one instance) and then when you do it again, it doesn't work.
I figured out where the other side of termination power goes . . .
Added boxes and the missing connectors on the 8 &16bit Adapter in an attempt to clarify things . . .
. . . anything gray, or bordered in gray, is on the side underneath the traces . . .
. . . anything orange is a friggin' mystery . . .
, , , still lost, but I'm done for today!
Added boxes and the missing connectors on the 8 &16bit Adapter in an attempt to clarify things . . .
. . . anything gray, or bordered in gray, is on the side underneath the traces . . .
. . . anything orange is a friggin' mystery . . .
, , , still lost, but I'm done for today!
Yeah, ok then, will leave that term power jumper off.
The VooDoo is causing my hair to turn prematurely grey.
Dang, I wish it'd turn my mature gray back to brown.
Thanks, trag, I missed your post while I was fiddling in Adobe Irritator. The default REM jumper setting was still in place for that first test.
Removed it and tried the Centronics50 Passive Terminator on the almost end of the cable with no jumpers = No Boot & no :?:
I enabled the TPR jumper for that same Centronics50 Passive Terminator config and it works just fine as boot drive on the IIsi.
Looks weird as hell with twelve 2GB partition icons on the desktop . . . but it works!
Before this, I needed the the terminated (SCSI ID 2) 3.5" boot drive on the very end of the cable to get the SCA drive to mount using the 8/16 bit adapter.
Still have some nagging questions, but it seems good to go, so I'm good enough for now.
Thanks, trag, I missed your post while I was fiddling in Adobe Irritator. The default REM jumper setting was still in place for that first test.
Removed it and tried the Centronics50 Passive Terminator on the almost end of the cable with no jumpers = No Boot & no :?:
I enabled the TPR jumper for that same Centronics50 Passive Terminator config and it works just fine as boot drive on the IIsi.
Looks weird as hell with twelve 2GB partition icons on the desktop . . . but it works!
Before this, I needed the the terminated (SCSI ID 2) 3.5" boot drive on the very end of the cable to get the SCA drive to mount using the 8/16 bit adapter.
Still have some nagging questions, but it seems good to go, so I'm good enough for now.
btw:
SCSI to IDE, z-80 convrototype, looking for a project lead
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=19623
I guess they are pretty much done with the PCB, I ordered a pcb, I'll have to populate it my self, when it arrives.
SCSI to IDE, z-80 conv
rototype, looking for a project leadviewtopic.php?f=29&t=19623
I guess they are pretty much done with the PCB, I ordered a pcb, I'll have to populate it my self, when it arrives.
Heh...reminds me of the Apple IIgs I used to have, with a CMS SCSI card that did its own controller-side partitioning of drives into 32MB volumes...I used an 800MB drive at first, until I got tired of it having to check and display 25 volumes every time I booted the thing! Put an 80MB in and it was more manageable
I'm just glad I cancelled the HDT initialization session or I'd have close to 40 of the pesky lil' suckers on there. 8-o
Gotta initialize another one and stop it after 4 or 5 partitions are done! :lol:
@ trag: what's up with the TERM jumper settings? Is the IIsi in the same "no termination power" class you mentioned?
Gotta initialize another one and stop it after 4 or 5 partitions are done! :lol:
@ trag: what's up with the TERM jumper settings? Is the IIsi in the same "no termination power" class you mentioned?
Mine will boot with the SCSI Zip plugged in, but I get the slowest :?: ever without Zip
Of note: I get the :?: anyway for a few (15ish) seconds until I hear the drive spin up with Zip.
Of note: I get the :?: anyway for a few (15ish) seconds until I hear the drive spin up with Zip.
so : to Re-Cap
with zip plugged in:
The HD boots normally and works…
W/O zip plugged in:
The HD boots after 15 seconds, and seems to boot/access very slowly?
Thanks
with zip plugged in:
The HD boots normally and works…
W/O zip plugged in:
The HD boots after 15 seconds, and seems to boot/access very slowly?
Thanks
All my big drives come up slowly on old Macs. I need to get a batch of IDC50M Connectors so I can use a standard internal terminator on the end of the internal cable. That's the way all my 68pin internal cables are set up; terminator hardwired on a couple of inches past the last drive connector . . .
. . . I'm aASSumIng that method will work fine for these drives on internal 50 pin cables.
. . . I'm aASSumIng that method will work fine for these drives on internal 50 pin cables.
Beats the heck out of me. There's an Apple Tech Note that covers the topic. I'll have to hunt it down. And then actually read it again. Sigh.
http://developer.apple.com/legacy/library/#technotes/dv/dv_15.html
I wish the links to PDF versions still worked.
I read it. It clearly states in a table that external termination power is supplied for the Mac II family, except that in the table where it shows that, the IIsi is never mentioned. The IIci is there. The IIfx. The LC is in the next table. The IIvi. But no IIsi. Beats me, but I would guess that what's true for the IIci is likely to be true for the IIsi.
Thanks, trag, I fixed the link in your post, that's some strange goins' on with the URLs for that page and those article section links. Pruning it back to the .html extension did the trick. What kind of games is Apple playing with RDL info linkage here?
Dunno WHAT's goin' on with this adapter, but the added TERM power coming from the Molex Connector, limited by the resistor, seems to do a world of good for both of the passive terminators I tried out on the end of my 50 pin internal cable lashup. The cable's just about two feet long, but that shouldn't present any problem. I'll give a look see at the Termination power line of the IIsi with the meter when I'm awake again. I'll also try to find out the value of the resistor on the adapter. Maybe even take a couple of pics . . .
. . . I never can find that blasted Active Terminator panel from the back end of my APS ZFP HDD Case when I need it! :
Dunno WHAT's goin' on with this adapter, but the added TERM power coming from the Molex Connector, limited by the resistor, seems to do a world of good for both of the passive terminators I tried out on the end of my 50 pin internal cable lashup. The cable's just about two feet long, but that shouldn't present any problem. I'll give a look see at the Termination power line of the IIsi with the meter when I'm awake again. I'll also try to find out the value of the resistor on the adapter. Maybe even take a couple of pics . . .
. . . I never can find that blasted Active Terminator panel from the back end of my APS ZFP HDD Case when I need it! :
Actually the 15 seconds 'til spin-up is regardless of the presence of the Zip. It only boots while Zipified.
When un-Zipified it doesn't boot, and the question-mark folder is there, but it doesn't do its usual fairly-rapid on/off; it is on for several seconds, and off for several seconds. The animation itself is very slow.
ok then your findings are consistent with mine.
if you feel like it, i'm curious to know if maybe buying this and installing will
allow the HD to boot, emulating the presence of a external scsi device (terminated).
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Passive-SCSI-Terminator-DB25-Male-/140943145282?pt=US_Drive_Cables_dapters&hash=item20d0ddb942
Passive SCSI Terminator, DB25 Male
i'v just ordered one to test.
if you feel like it, i'm curious to know if maybe buying this and installing will
allow the HD to boot, emulating the presence of a external scsi device (terminated).
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Passive-SCSI-Terminator-DB25-Male-/140943145282?pt=US_Drive_Cables_dapters&hash=item20d0ddb942
Passive SCSI Terminator, DB25 Male
i'v just ordered one to test.
They're handy to have, but they don't work, just tried it to make sure. The Zip drive test worked fine, most likely because it supplies its own Termination Power. That'd be why Zip drives work with the Macs on trag's list. Check the pinouts of the DB-25 "SCSI" connector, dollars to doughnuts there's no termination power on Apple's Sub-Standard DB-25 SCSI abomination.
The external terminator works on the internal cable which apparently has a termination power line of some kind, powered or not. My drive works with the he TERM jumper supplying power, or at least additional power, to the 50pin Centronics Connector.
Curiouser and curiouser . . . but it's time to get ready to go to work.
The external terminator works on the internal cable which apparently has a termination power line of some kind, powered or not. My drive works with the he TERM jumper supplying power, or at least additional power, to the 50pin Centronics Connector.
Curiouser and curiouser . . . but it's time to get ready to go to work.
I need to crack the books for confirmation, but I think I've nailed it down, at least for the IIsi.
Just as I was about to try doweling the internal terminator from the DuoDock to an internal cable connector with header pins, I was looking for my utilities floppy to load iomega guest onto the SCA boot drive. So, of course, I found the IDC50, passive, passthru terminator.
Works like a charm, but TPR (termination power) needs to be jumpered or it doesn't work.
full size pic, the attachments seem to be acting . . . strangely
Just put the DuoDock back together . . . :
. . . and decided to pull down GttMFH2e, and sure enough:
- the diagram I did is wrong, I'll correct it, the TPR Jumper leads to pin 26 on the internal cable . . .
- pin 26 on the internal SCSI interface is TPWR, so far so good . . .
. . . but the pin 26 trace does not appear to be connected to the SCA connector!
Dunno, I'll try the other two 25 pin external terminators, but I doubt they'll work . . .
. . . which is strange . . . but likely true . . . it's a SCSI incorrect configuration.
. . . pin 26 on the IDC50 internal connector is connected to pin 25 on the external connector . . . TPR!
It looks to me like these drives almost require termination to be in the proper position: at the end of the chain, which makes a world of SCSI sense. I'm thinking the Zip gambit is a case of SCSI Voodoo that appears to work reliably in our favor, but MMV, cuz it doesn't make any SCSI sense. The Zip drive must provide power for its termination, or it wouldn't work on all of my PBs, from the 100 on up. The difference between the DB-25 terminator and the Zip would be that additional power, I'm wondering if pin 25 is only implemented on the daisy chain in the Zip Drive?
I'll be looking for a source of IDC passthru connectors, don't remember where, why or how I got the one I have. It probably was included in one of the batch lots of cables and connector I've snagged over the years.
I'll still get some IDC50M connectors for a more compact, more handily positioned solution. They make nice SCSI extension cables as well.
@ trag: does it make sense that all of these adapters are intended to be used with a terminated cable? If so, it seems to me that that's how they'd be getting termination to the upper 8 bits of the 68 pin internal cable, all of which seem to have a permanently affixed terminator at the end of the cable. I'll have to buzz the SCA->68 and the SCA 8&16bit adapters to see if this could be the case.
Just as I was about to try doweling the internal terminator from the DuoDock to an internal cable connector with header pins, I was looking for my utilities floppy to load iomega guest onto the SCA boot drive. So, of course, I found the IDC50, passive, passthru terminator.
Works like a charm, but TPR (termination power) needs to be jumpered or it doesn't work.
full size pic, the attachments seem to be acting . . . strangely
Just put the DuoDock back together . . . :
. . . and decided to pull down GttMFH2e, and sure enough:
- the diagram I did is wrong, I'll correct it, the TPR Jumper leads to pin 26 on the internal cable . . .
- pin 26 on the internal SCSI interface is TPWR, so far so good . . .
. . . but the pin 26 trace does not appear to be connected to the SCA connector!
Dunno, I'll try the other two 25 pin external terminators, but I doubt they'll work . . .
. . . which is strange . . . but likely true . . . it's a SCSI incorrect configuration.
. . . pin 26 on the IDC50 internal connector is connected to pin 25 on the external connector . . . TPR!
It looks to me like these drives almost require termination to be in the proper position: at the end of the chain, which makes a world of SCSI sense. I'm thinking the Zip gambit is a case of SCSI Voodoo that appears to work reliably in our favor, but MMV, cuz it doesn't make any SCSI sense. The Zip drive must provide power for its termination, or it wouldn't work on all of my PBs, from the 100 on up. The difference between the DB-25 terminator and the Zip would be that additional power, I'm wondering if pin 25 is only implemented on the daisy chain in the Zip Drive?
I'll be looking for a source of IDC passthru connectors, don't remember where, why or how I got the one I have. It probably was included in one of the batch lots of cables and connector I've snagged over the years.
I'll still get some IDC50M connectors for a more compact, more handily positioned solution. They make nice SCSI extension cables as well.
@ trag: does it make sense that all of these adapters are intended to be used with a terminated cable? If so, it seems to me that that's how they'd be getting termination to the upper 8 bits of the 68 pin internal cable, all of which seem to have a permanently affixed terminator at the end of the cable. I'll have to buzz the SCA->68 and the SCA 8&16bit adapters to see if this could be the case.
HOLY SCSI VOODOO, BATMAN!!!!!
Just tested the other two DB-25 terminators and they both work! However, the one that looks very much, but not exactly, like the terminator that you guys have ordered (or did you buy two OF THEM, uni?) still doesn't work.
One of them, similar to the one in the auction, has no maker's mark, but is labeled PASSIVE . . .
The other is labeled AST25 & SCSI Terminator and is a passthru type without the "passive" indicator . . .
I surrender! :-/
Just tested the other two DB-25 terminators and they both work! However, the one that looks very much, but not exactly, like the terminator that you guys have ordered (or did you buy two OF THEM, uni?) still doesn't work.
One of them, similar to the one in the auction, has no maker's mark, but is labeled PASSIVE . . .
The other is labeled AST25 & SCSI Terminator and is a passthru type without the "passive" indicator . . .
I surrender! :-/
ok yeah i was right... this 5 dollar adaptor is working out good. Allows q605 and q700 to boot flawlessly, with this terminator installed.
so far, testing continues.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Passive-SCSI-Terminator-DB25-Male-/140943145282?pt=US_Drive_Cables_dapters&hash=item20d0ddb942
no voodoo as of yet.
so far, testing continues.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Passive-SCSI-Terminator-DB25-Male-/140943145282?pt=US_Drive_Cables_dapters&hash=item20d0ddb942
no voodoo as of yet.
Congrats, that looks just like the only one of the three that I have that didn't work. Mine could be flat out bad, but or from a different mfr. In either case, I still think it's SCSI Voodoo working in your favor in this non-standard configuration.
If there's room in any given installation, I'd strongly suggest using an internal passthru terminator, passive, or better yet, active. They're available here for $2 and $7 respectively.
http://www.cablesdirect.com/search_scsiterm.asp
I'd check those out if I were you, uni. I'll be getting an active one and a few of the passive variety for some of my lot of drives.
If there's room in any given installation, I'd strongly suggest using an internal passthru terminator, passive, or better yet, active. They're available here for $2 and $7 respectively.
http://www.cablesdirect.com/search_scsiterm.asp
I'd check those out if I were you, uni. I'll be getting an active one and a few of the passive variety for some of my lot of drives.
if you see any more lots of these hd's feel free to post.
that adaptor for 2.20 plus shipping is $11.15
on the bay the are $ 8 bucks free shipping
The adaptor in my above post is 5.12 out the door free shipping.
( i bought 3 more )
So far they seem to have preformed an exorcism and killed the voodoo.
that adaptor for 2.20 plus shipping is $11.15
on the bay the are $ 8 bucks free shipping
The adaptor in my above post is 5.12 out the door free shipping.
( i bought 3 more )
So far they seem to have preformed an exorcism and killed the voodoo.
A batch of them will have combined shipping, IIRC. Those guys are all right, not like the eBay gang that won't budge on the shipping.
You haven't killed the voodoo, you've harnesswed it fairly successfully for a very non standard configuration that's not supposed to work. Cheaper is not always better. Voodoo can rear its ugly head when you put devices other than, or in addition to, a Zip on the external chain. With the proper config, you should never have a problem.
You haven't killed the voodoo, you've harnesswed it fairly successfully for a very non standard configuration that's not supposed to work. Cheaper is not always better. Voodoo can rear its ugly head when you put devices other than, or in addition to, a Zip on the external chain. With the proper config, you should never have a problem.
There is no room for anything else to add on the chain, internally, with all of my current machines.
Externally? well hell we know that works.
Yada yada bigger Quadras, I don't have any of those, and would cross that bridge when i get to it.
Externally? well hell we know that works.
Yada yada bigger Quadras, I don't have any of those, and would cross that bridge when i get to it.
everything about installing a 73gig SCA hd in a 68k mac, with a SCA adaptor is NON standard…
No, it really wouldn't be non-standard, if you guys had used a properly terminated SCA adapter in the first place.
Could you do me a favor and post a link of a proper terminated SCA adaptor? in your opinion? one that is $$ cheap, but works...
Thanks,
Much appreciated trag.
Thanks,
Much appreciated trag.
Here is one:
http://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/SCAN/
http://eshop.macsales.com/Tech/FTP/SCA80to50.pdf
9 bucks + shipping
i like this one because i think it would allow you to use that funky Hard Drive adaptor used with the LC575 and alike.
http://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/SCAN/
http://eshop.macsales.com/Tech/FTP/SCA80to50.pdf
9 bucks + shipping
i like this one because i think it would allow you to use that funky Hard Drive adaptor used with the LC575 and alike.
Limited supply . . . :-/
. . . I'm liking the small package possible using this adapter.
There should be no difference between that and the passive passthru connector/adapter combo I'm using now. The active passthru ought to be better in some applications, but not necessary because the way I've done it has the termination resistors at the end of the chain per SCSI standards.
. . . I'm liking the small package possible using this adapter.
There should be no difference between that and the passive passthru connector/adapter combo I'm using now. The active passthru ought to be better in some applications, but not necessary because the way I've done it has the termination resistors at the end of the chain per SCSI standards.
Will the one I got work in an external enclosure, such as the Apple HD20SC?
If it doesn't work as is, will it work if I get a passthrough terminator?
c
EDIT: Looks like it probably will?
If it doesn't work as is, will it work if I get a passthrough terminator?
c
EDIT: Looks like it probably will?