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Solid State Drive (SSD) in SE/30
68kMLA · Hardware · 68 posts · Nov 29, 2009 — Mar 16, 2010 View original thread ↗
#1 Sun, 29 Nov 2009 - 22:04 68kMLA
Hi all.

Just wanted to share my experiences on SSD's (Solid State Drives) and my SE/30.

My SE/30's stock Apple drive was getting *very* noisy indeed, and a replacement 9gig IBM didn't improve things at all.

A while ago on eBay, I came across a vendor flogging 2.5", 8gig IDE SSD's, from whom I bought two drives, I thought I'd use on my Thinkpad 701c (Butterfly model).

However, the IBM didn't recognize the drives, and I bin'ed them for a while.

Then I thought of my SE/30, and I dug the drives out again, went to eBay and bought an ACARD SCSI <> IDE converter board (not labled ACARD, but it's the same card from an OEM vendor). Also, I had an IDE40 <> IDE44 adaptor already.

So, I went to install an SSD in the SE/30, with the IDE40 <> IDE 44 attached to the drive, and the ACARD scsi <> IDE adaptor connected to the scsi ribbon and IDE converter.

Booted the SE/30 from a boot floppy, and the drive was ... - *not* recognized by Apple HD Setup Tools...

Knowing full well that all this conversion of standards on two adaptor boards inevitably introduces a plethora of potential errors, coupled with the previous "success" from the IBM,

I thought the project was stillborn. However, the next day I remembered the "hacked" HD Tool from Apple I had, and booted the machine again. This time, the SE/30 *did*

recognize the drive, and started the initialization process. Hours later, it failed. Some nonsensical error pertaining to the co-processor was presented to me.

Undaunted, I tried again - and again. Same result *every* single time!!!

Poking about the 9 gig IBM drive, I byu now had installed in an Apple 20SC enclosure, I found a Syquest SCSI tool, which also recognized the drive. And what's more, it had a "format"-button...

So - I tried an "easy setup" of my SSD, and waited yet again.

And lo and behold, this time the format finished without a hick-up. I now have the SSD formated in a two (2) gig partition, holding System 7.5.3 and apps. The rest is still unformated.

So, long story short - I now have an SE/30 with SSD - quiet as a "Fat Mac", with all the wisper-quiet storage one could ever dream of in a 68K Macintosh.

The system is configured thus:

SE/30

Stock ROM (have IIfx and IIsi ROM, but not installed)

68meg RAM (4x1 and 4x16)

System, 7.5.3 on

8gig IDE SSD with dual conversion (SSD is an industrial grade Smart Modular Technologies, I got of eBay at 40us$...)

Asante MacCon IIsi/se30 ethernet

Micron Xceed with grayscale

Apple 20SC external HD

And it's just a bundle of joy to work with! Also, please observe that I'm talking true SSD with an SSD controller built in the drive, and *not* an IDE <> Compact Flash solution.

Cheers from Denmark,

/Anders

#2 Sun, 29 Nov 2009 - 22:14 68kMLA
Woah. That's all I can say. Is it faster?

#3 Sun, 29 Nov 2009 - 22:24 68kMLA
Ahh yes, speed, I forgot.

Well - yes and no. It's faster then the stock Apple 40 meg, but no more than the IBM 9gig. I suppose the SCSI bus is hindered by age, and by a dog-slow system bus. Also, the I/O conversion from SCSI <> IDE does nothing to improve things either.

I'm in the market for a socket CPU upgrade from Daystar / Sonnet, but I'm not holding out for any speed-improvement in the I/O-department.

So, it's not making your system faster, it's not making your system more reliable (on the contrary, I guess, due to the massive I/O conversion) - but it *does* make it quiet, and I just love when friends realise my 20year+ old computer runs of an SSD they can't afford in their new MacBooks Pro's (of course the price of an Intel X25-E and my 40us$ drive does not compare, but I'm not telling!)

*note*

Although I've previous bragged about being able to format with Syquest SCSI something-or-rather, I just remembered that what I actually used, was Lido 7.5.6... A pox upon me for being a liar, folks!

*end note*

#4 Sun, 29 Nov 2009 - 23:10 68kMLA
I now have an SE/30 with SSD - quiet as a "Fat Mac",
Click to expand...
Well, not as quiet as a Fat Mac unless you have also taken out the fan. Which on an SE/30 might not be the best idea, with or without a spinning hard drive.

#5 Sun, 29 Nov 2009 - 23:16 68kMLA
He, true, but with a new 6" silent fan and a bum ear, I'm anybody's fool! And I agree, *never* leave an SE/30 without ventilation.

#6 Tue, 1 Dec 2009 - 13:14 68kMLA
The best SSD for the SE/30 is a drive that is made in the stock form factor (3.5") and already has a 50-pin SCSI connector. Indeed, one probably couldn't do much better than this:

http://www.tri-m.com/products/sandisk/ffd35unscsi.html

That web page says they will even supply a SCSI-1 interface upon request. Since it's an EOL drive (and hence, they probably have a lot of dead stock on their hands), I cannot imagine that the price should be too high now days. But one would have to Request a Quote to find out.

#7 Tue, 1 Dec 2009 - 14:41 68kMLA
http://www.tri-m.com/products/sandisk/ffd35unscsi.html
That web page says they will even supply a SCSI-1 interface upon request. Since it's an EOL drive (and hence, they probably have a lot of dead stock on their hands), I cannot imagine that the price should be too high now days. But one would have to Request a Quote to find out.
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Quote requested. :) I'll let you know what I find out.

#8 Tue, 1 Dec 2009 - 19:26 68kMLA
SCSI-2 to SCSI-1 conversion boards are cheap and easy to find. If they do a price break on small quantities (say 10) maybe we should RaQ for a group purchase :)

#9 Tue, 1 Dec 2009 - 21:07 68kMLA
I myself are up for two or three drives, depending on price and capacity.

/Anders

#11 Tue, 1 Dec 2009 - 21:44 68kMLA
If that M-SYSTEMS drive I mention is available in a reasonable quantity (i.e., more than 10) and for a reasonable price (i.e., less than say $200 for a 4GB size), then you would probably have most SE/30 owners on the planet after this SSD drive. Again, it's the perfect size and it has a 50-pin connector, and it comes in a SCSI-1 or SCSI-2 edition. That means it is just a drop-in replacement for your existing spinning platter drive, no adapters required.

#12 Tue, 1 Dec 2009 - 22:33 68kMLA
If it's a SCSI-1 standard, I can see more than just the SE/30 owners going after it. I'd like to try it on both my SE/30 and on my Power Mac 7500. Imagine installing a 30-some gigabyte one in that Mac. W00t!

73s de Phreakout. :rambo:

#13 Wed, 2 Dec 2009 - 00:26 68kMLA
I'm not sure if it is only "SCSI-1" that will work in the SE/30. I had this IBM DGHS drive internal to my SE/30 in the past and it worked perfectly. (I only moved it to an HD20 enclosure to reduce heat inside my SE/30.) But as you can see in my photo, this is an "Ultra" SCSI drive, originally used in servers. And if this SCSI wiki is to be taken at face value, then Ultra Narrow SCSI = "SCSI-3 SPI". So I guess that would mean that so long as a "Narrow" SCSI drive has a 50-pin connector, is terminated correctly, and comes in a 3.5" low profile form factor, it will work internal to an SE/30 even if it is SCSI-1 or SCSI-2 or SCSI-3.

#14 Wed, 2 Dec 2009 - 04:42 68kMLA
Could you post that Syquest tool? I have an SE/30 I'd like to get running with a newer drive.

Regarding an ideal, easily obtainable SCSI drive, I recommend getting an Acard ARS-2000SUP SATA to 50 pin SCSI adapter which takes 2.5" SATA drives. You can use a laptop hard drive or a 2.5" SSD drive, and the adapter is still made.

Also, there is no speed degradation from the IDE to SCSI adapters. I've been able to get in excess of 80 MB/sec from a single drive with Acard adapters. They can make IDE drives FASTER than when they're connected to an IDE bus because you have a dedicated IDE bus between a specialized controller and the drive, and on the other side a SCSI bus with command queueing, disconnect/reconnect, and, in most instances (NOT the SE/30) DMA.

#15 Wed, 2 Dec 2009 - 05:29 68kMLA
While you are correct in stating that 2.5" laptop hard drives (spinning platter type) can be used, this thread is focused on SSDs. Moreover, 2.5" drives of the spinning platter type are hardly more inspiring than the 3.5" variety. They can be easy found anywhere for cheap prices, but so what? SSDs are what the doctor ordered for lowering power consumption and heat and noise.

And as to "adapters" I covered that my previous posts here. Why get an adapter if you can get a 3.5" form factor SSD drive that is already SCSI-1, SCSI-2 or SCSI-3 (narrow) and is drop-in compatible with the stock hard drive? The price would be the only real consideration here. But SSD prices today are the lowest they have ever been. It just depends on how stingy these companies are in clearly out their "dead stock" of older model SSDs (older models, yet perfect for our vintage Macs, with speeds that more than saturate the original SCSI busses).

#16 Wed, 2 Dec 2009 - 06:51 68kMLA
While you are correct in stating that 2.5" laptop hard drives (spinning platter type) can be used, this thread is focused on SSDs. Moreover, 2.5" drives of the spinning platter type are hardly more inspiring than the 3.5" variety. They can be easy found anywhere for cheap prices, but so what? SSDs are what the doctor ordered for lowering power consumption and heat and noise.
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2.5" drives are also good regarding power usage, heat and noise when compared with 3.5" or particularly SCSI drives, but I mentioned that you can easily put in a 2.5" SSD drive if that's your thing. It's MUCH easier to find an SSD drive in the 2.5" form factor with a SATA interface than anything else (just check Newegg or the likes).

And as to "adapters" I covered that my previous posts here. Why get an adapter if you can get a 3.5" form factor SSD drive that is already SCSI-1, SCSI-2 or SCSI-3 (narrow) and is drop-in compatible with the stock hard drive? The price would be the only real consideration here. But SSD prices today are the lowest they have ever been. It just depends on how stingy these companies are in clearly out their "dead stock" of older model SSDs (older models, yet perfect for our vintage Macs, with speeds that more than saturate the original SCSI busses).
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Well, for one, if the drives are not upgradeable (flash does wear out after a while, after all), and especially if they're not made anymore, the Acard is a good alternative. I bought the Acards because I do a lot of upgrades for new laptops and therefore have lots of 160 gig and 250 gig 2.5" SATA hard drives.

q605_acard.jpg.023fed905dc5543a1da36b727130bfb4.jpg


acard_sata.jpg.58502e61cbff7c0ecf936e145b74b167.jpg


#17 Wed, 2 Dec 2009 - 09:05 68kMLA
With my limited knowledge of SCSI standards, coupled with my first-hand knowledge of what have worked for me in the past, I can attest to the fact that as long as the drive is a 50pin drive, it's SE/30 compatible. In fact, you can take a new, ultra wide 80 pin driven and with the appropriate adapter, install it in you own SE/30.

However, I *have* found problems with large drives and System 7.1 and below. Seems like System 7.1 doesn't like large drives (partitions to be exact) in the gigabyte-range.

#18 Wed, 2 Dec 2009 - 09:31 68kMLA
Keep the drive partitioned in 2GB chunks and you will be compatible even with System 6. My IBM DGHS is 4.5GB. I divided it up so System 6.0.8 could see all the files on all partitions. It works perfectly.

#19 Sat, 5 Dec 2009 - 02:26 68kMLA
The best SSD for the SE/30 is a drive that is made in the stock form factor (3.5") and already has a 50-pin SCSI connector. Indeed, one probably couldn't do much better than this:
http://www.tri-m.com/products/sandisk/ffd35unscsi.html

That web page says they will even supply a SCSI-1 interface upon request. Since it's an EOL drive (and hence, they probably have a lot of dead stock on their hands), I cannot imagine that the price should be too high now days. But one would have to Request a Quote to find out.
Click to expand...
Got a email back saying that the company no longer sells the product.

#20 Sat, 5 Dec 2009 - 03:58 68kMLA
Thanks for replying back about that. I figured as much. But no doubt someone out there has stock of them. I cannot imagine that NASA and the US Military would have snapped them all up.

#21 Mon, 7 Dec 2009 - 21:56 68kMLA
Once you have a CF card formatted by the SE/30, can you still read the card in MacOS X via a card reader to transfer files?

Could the formatting have been done via an emulator in the first place?

#22 Mon, 7 Dec 2009 - 22:07 68kMLA
You need to format the drive in a computer running system 7.x or equivalent.

But, popping it in a card-reader on the OS X machine afterwards, gives read- and write access to the HFS-partition.

Don't know about the emulator, though.

#23 Wed, 9 Dec 2009 - 07:42 68kMLA
You need to format the drive in a computer running system 7.x or equivalent.
Click to expand...
Based on my test with a USB drive, you can format it with a disk utility. Since I have Snow Leopard (no HFS format/write support), I had to use TransMac via WinXP, which is really maddening. If someone knows of a similar Mac based tool, please chime in. I was then able to open the drive in Basilisk and transfer files to the drive. Once I get my CF card, I will try the same thing.

This thread helped get me going: http://68kmla.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11290.

#24 Sat, 9 Jan 2010 - 02:35 68kMLA
#26 Sat, 9 Jan 2010 - 03:43 68kMLA
Why buy that when you can buy this?!
Click to expand...
If they only had one of those in 50-pin SCSI form we'd be set!

(Yes, I'm fully aware of IDE-SCSI adapters. I am talking about a single tiny unit that does the CF to SCSI adaptation.)

Even so, this solution is not as idea as a dedicated SSD due to the limited number of writes on Flash memories.

#27 Sat, 9 Jan 2010 - 04:13 68kMLA
2.5" SATA SSD drives which would constitute "dedicated SSD" can be used with the rather expensive Acard SATA to 50 pin SCSI giving you a very nice 3.5" 50 pin SCSI form factor with hardly any power draw.

#28 Sat, 9 Jan 2010 - 06:12 68kMLA
Even so, this solution is not as idea as a dedicated SSD due to the limited number of writes on Flash memories.
Click to expand...
Typical SSDs are rated to 1million write cycles. Cheapie CF cards are rated to 1/10th that. However, many of the faster CF cards (266x and 300x+) which you'd really want to use for a hard disk replacement anyway, are rated to the same 1million write cycles as your typical SSD. SanDisk sells industrial CF cards rated to twice that. Additionally, unless you're really using all the space, most of the unused flash blocks will still be used to distribute the write cycles.

Low end CF cards also have a bit of a stutter to them as the wear leveling kicks in which is largely addressed by the higher end cards that also typically have the higher write cycle rating, which is why I say you'd really want to use the higher end CF cards as a hard disk replacement regardless of write cycle concerns. And even at the higher end CF cards, it's a more cost effective solution IMO.

None of that addresses the form factor and ease of mounting concerns though. The SCSI-IDE converts and IDE-CF adapters are a mixed bag in that department. They do allow for some interesting mounting options, such as the CF card accessible via an unused floppy bay or nubus slot. But typically require much more time to mount properly regardless of the CF accessibility mounting or stock internal drive replacement mounts.

#29 Sat, 9 Jan 2010 - 07:15 68kMLA
If there was a simple, low-cost 50-pin SCSI SSD or CF card solution out there, no doubt we'd all being linking to the product here on 68kMLA. For who among us doesn't want such a low-heat, 100% silent, low-power solution for their vintage Mac? But there is no one solution that fills the bill. I still don't like multiple adapters. However, it is interesting to read about the 1 million write cycle CF cards. I did not know that.

For myself, I just want something along the lines of 4.5GB to 8GB in size, with 50-pin SCSI that will work internally in my SE30. If I can get everything I need (CF card, cables, adapters -- everything) for under $200, assured to work perfectly as any normal spinning platter hard disk would, then I am ready to buy. But I would want it to read and write AT LEAST as fast as the 7200rpm SCSI drive I am currently using.

#31 Sat, 9 Jan 2010 - 08:05 68kMLA
In my SE/30, I am currently using an R-IDSC-E SCSI to IDE converter purchased off ebay, which is still for sale for ~$35.

http://cgi.ebay.com/IDE-40pin-to-SCSI-50pin-Bridge-Adapter-Amiga-MAC-PC-NEW_W0QQitemZ280448840241QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item414c0db231#ht_500wt_991

I'm also using an IDE-CF adapter available on ebay for ~$5.

http://cgi.ebay.com/IDE-to-CF-Compact-Flash-Hard-Drive-w-Rear-Panel-USA-sh_W0QQitemZ390141108008QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5ad638df28#ht_1939wt_751

The mounting plate unscrews, and I just have the bare card plugged directly into the r-idsc-e scsi-ide converter, no extra cables.

I'm currently using a $20 Kingston 133x 8GB CF card from buy.com, which works fine for my purposes, but I would recommend something higher end for your requirements. As for speed, I have no benchmarks and you've provided no benchmarks to compare against your drive so I can't help in that department.

LEM has some benchmarks: http://lowendmac.com/benchmarks/se30.shtml

And according to the wikipedia article on CF speeds, almost any CF card you buy today will be able to max out the SE/30's SCSI bus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CompactFlash The higher end cards will be more likely to sustain those speeds without the wear leveling causing stalls. Since CF is parallel IDE, the IDE-CF adapter is straight through connections and won't slow performance. The R-IDSC-E adapter seems to be able to max out SCSI-2 speeds, so I don't think that'll be an issue either.

However, mounting it is the downfall with this approach IMO. The R-IDSC-E SCSI-IDE converter is a bare board, as is the IDE-CF adapter which makes mounting in a metal case awkward. I kind of hacked it together with a plastic 3.5" drive sled from a 6200, and mounted that into the SE/30. I wouldn't recommend doing what I did, so unfortunately you're on your own here.

#33 Sun, 10 Jan 2010 - 16:53 68kMLA
You can get a 4 gig CF card for less than $15, or less than $20 for a fast one or a good brand. On the other hand, $27 is pretty good, especially considering the fact that you don't need the CF to IDE adapter.

I just thought I'd mention that other than using CF cards as boot devices, I'm using several as the main drives in HP Jornada computers which are running NetBSD. The most active of them has been running as a slave DNS server for about 500 domains and as a router for a subnet of public IPs. The first card I got for that machine died after about six months, but I realized that was because I was using filesystem journaling which writes the same small areas of the disk over and over and over, very frequently. When I got the replacement card, I turned off journaling, and it's been running without the slightest complaint for a year now.

I have a feeling that the above eBay item or any decent CF card these days will last just about forever in an SE/30.

#34 Sun, 10 Jan 2010 - 18:33 68kMLA
Yeah, I tend to agree.

Re prices: It's been a while since I checked, and I forget how quickly computer related stuff gets cheaper.

#35 Mon, 11 Jan 2010 - 03:46 68kMLA
I suppose the SCSI bus is hindered by age, and by a dog-slow system bus.
Click to expand...
Very much so.
These are not SE/30s and not SCSI but you get the idea.

http://poopr.org/images/smzhjze54hlu6ms6b9a.png

Current system (Beige G3 433MHz) - was using a Kingston Elite Pro or something 4GB 133x CF card

The Quadra 630 is just the default comparison result that I forgot to remove before taking the screenie. It would be using whatever HDD it came with I guess. It is not mine.

6500/225 4GB 133x CF - was using the 4GB CF

6500/225 64mb r7000 - was using a 6GB Western Digital Caviar from a rev D tray loading iMac.

P580/40 ST15150N - was using a Seagate ST15150N on the SCSI bus

Beige G3 433 rad7000 - was using the 6GB WDC

Performa 580 33MHz & 40MHz - were using the 6GB WDC

The Performa 580 and PowerMac 6500 were both running Mac OS 7.6.1. The Beige G3 was running Mac OS 9.2.2.

It would have helped if I had set each one up specifically for benching. New OS install, fresh boot, as similar of settings as possible, etc. These results are just what I have ended up collecting over time. Not professional at all. :S

Either way, I can certainly say that a 133x CF card will not result in an easily noticeable difference to most people on 68k IDE. I am not entirely sure about 68k SCSI though since I have no SCSI->IDE devices to compare. Still, unless you are using a decent PowerMac, a CF card will not hamper you much.

#36 Mon, 11 Jan 2010 - 04:53 68kMLA
...unless you are using a decent PowerMac, a CF card will not hamper you much.
Click to expand...
I don't want to be hampered at all. Indeed, I want a speed boost for reads and writes.

Yet, with all this talk of what's possible, why then is there no one among us with comparative benchmarks?

I want to see benchmark performance of a CF or SSD solution in an SE/30, and then compare that with a fast spinning platter hard drive. Only then can we decided, based on the facts, what is truly faster or better.

#37 Mon, 11 Jan 2010 - 06:58 68kMLA
The difference, if measurable, between CF and SATA on a polled I/O SCSI bus on a 16 MHz m68030 is going to be so insignificant as to be noise. Any CF (except perhaps the slowest, oldest) and any SATA or IDE drive these days will easily be able to sustain 2 MB/sec, which is the maximum you could ever get from an SE/30 SCSI.

If you can measure a difference, it might be on seek times, although I highly doubt that a 2.5" laptop hard drive's seek time is large enough to measure.

I'll stick a CF into my Quadra 605 and compare it with the current SCSI-SATA interface and see if there's any difference, although I don't think that even an '040 will be fast enough to measure the difference.

#38 Mon, 11 Jan 2010 - 08:28 68kMLA
The difference, if measurable, between CF and SATA on a polled I/O SCSI bus on a 16 MHz m68030 is going to be so insignificant as to be noise.
Click to expand...
Pure speculation until I see actual benchmarks. Benchmarks are very easy too. Most of us have a copy of Norton Utilities, which includes a benchmarking program. There were also other popular benchmarking apps for 68k Macs.

If I had a flash disk solution in my hands right now, I would do the benchmark comparisons and post them for all of us. But I don't have that so I appeal to those of you who do. Cut the speculation and put down some facts. Benchmark numbers speak louder that our "guesses."

#39 Mon, 11 Jan 2010 - 18:20 68kMLA
I can't speak for the others, but I was just trying to share my experiences from using CF in an SE/30 (and other machines) and relevant information on the subject in order to help you with your decision. Personally, I've already made my decisions and have a setup I'm pleased with. I, and I think most of the other posters here, were simply trying to help you achieve the same. Ultimately, it is your decision and what you decide really does not impact the rest of us.

I personally have no need or desire to spend time tracking down benchmarking software, benchmarking my systems, tearing them down, and re-benchmarking in various configurations in order to justify the decisions I made about my setup.

However, since you've been so appreciative of the experiences and advice given so far, and have asked nicely for others to benchmark their systems so you can make a more informed decision, I'm willing to do so.

I do not have a version of Norton Utilities with a disk benchmarking utility, and the TimeDisk utility used in the LEM SE/30 benchmark does not seem to be available. I've also been unsuccessful in locating a working copy of MacBench for the SE/30.

If you would kindly provide the benchmarking tool you would like us to use, and the tests you would like us to run, I'll make an effort to provide you with the requested information.

#40 Tue, 12 Jan 2010 - 04:05 68kMLA
I know that MacBench 1 will run on the SE/30. I am not sure about version 2(though it does have results for a SE.. so I bet it does) but I have both around. They are also available somewhere online as well.

As far as I know I have no other 68k benching tools that can do HDDs.

#41 Tue, 12 Jan 2010 - 08:36 68kMLA
The difference, if measurable, between CF and SATA on a polled I/O SCSI bus on a 16 MHz m68030 is going to be so insignificant as to be noise.
Click to expand...
Pure speculation until I see actual benchmarks. Benchmarks are very easy too. Most of us have a copy of Norton Utilities, which includes a benchmarking program. There were also other popular benchmarking apps for 68k Macs.
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No, not pure speculation - it's observation, although not observation specific to the SE/30. Take, for instance, the Amiga 3000. For quite a while it had the fastest SCSI bus of any non-Unix workstation and was used to benchmark drives. It's much faster than the SE/30's SCSI bus because it supports real DMA, has a FIFO to allow for 32 bit bus transfers and can even be persuaded to do synchronous mode. When I compared an 80 gig 7200 RPM 3.5" IDE drive on a SCSI to IDE adapter with a 250 gig 5400 RPM 2.5" SATA drive in an Acard SATA to SCSI adapter, there was no measurable difference. There was more of a variability between individual tests than there was between the different drives.

I'll let you know how things go when I compare the CF card with the SCSI-SATA.

#42 Tue, 12 Jan 2010 - 20:54 68kMLA
I have benchmarked a couple of storage solutions I had lying around, including:

Seagate Cheetah 10k RPM ST9102LW

SanDisk UltraII 4GB CompactFlash

Quantum ProDrive LPS connected externally

Kingston 8GB Standard CompactFlash (no manufacturer speed rating)

I had difficulty formatting a chart correctly in this post, so results are available at: http://synack.net/~bbraun/se30disks/

JDW indicated a preference for the Norton Utilities benchmark, so I used System Info from 4.0.3.

When interpreting the results, please read the notes I wrote at the bottom. There seemed to be pretty high variability in the results between multiple runs in the same configuration.

Sadly, I do not have any UDMA capable CF cards as that would provide an interesting comparison. As it stands, the low end CF card, which does not seem to have a speed rating from the manufacturer, performs the poorest. The UltraII card, which is pretty middle of the road, running in PIO mode, does as well as the 10k RPM Cheetah drive within the variability of the benchmark.

#43 Tue, 12 Jan 2010 - 21:47 68kMLA
bbraun, I certainly appreciate your time in testing CF solutions versus spinning platter drives with Norton "System Info."

It is interesting to see from your results that even the rather speedy SanDisk Ultra II did not beat the Cheetah in any of the tests except Random Read, and even then it wasn't an enormous difference. Overall the SanDisk Ultra II was a few points slower than the spinning platter drive (albeit a fast one).

The low end 8GB card you tested scored less than half of the SanDisk and Cheetah, although it did marginally better on the Random Read test. But clearly, that 8GB flash is a choice none of us would prefer in terms of performance.

It is interesting to note that the SanDisk Ultra II CF card is rated at 15MB/sec speeds for both READ and WRITE. You would think that should saturate the rather slow SCSI bus on the SE/30.

I wish to point out that while this test was only conducted on two different flash cards, it does confirm what I personally felt prior to the test. Namely, that given the specifications of the flash card, one would naturally think that the SanDisk Ultra II 4GB CF should saturate the SCSI bus of the SE/30 and be the winner over spinning platter drives in every test. But the fact that a spinning platter drive, the Cheetah, was in fact marginally faster than the SanDisk and winning all the drive tests except one, indicates that we cannot simply look at the flash card specifications alone. Benchmarks really do help us determine the performance of CF solutions for our vintage Macs.

Further benchmarks performed on spinning platter drives are available for viewing from this LEM SE/30 Page.

If you want to run your own tests but lack the software (or the knowledge where to download it freely), just PM me.

Thanks again, bbraun.

#44 Tue, 12 Jan 2010 - 22:37 68kMLA
It is interesting to see from your results that even the rather speedy SanDisk Ultra II did not beat the Cheetah in any of the tests except Random Read, and even then it wasn't an enormous difference. Overall the SanDisk Ultra II was a few points slower than the spinning platter drive (albeit a fast one).
Click to expand...
I disagree with your interpretation of the benchmark results here. These are single data points with an observed variability of up to 12%. There is not sufficient data to be drawing the conclusions you are with any confidence at all. I'd really rather not dust off my old statistics book and do a proper work up on these benchmarks. That'd eat up the better part of a weekend to do properly.

It is interesting to note that the SanDisk Ultra II CF card is rated at 15MB/sec speeds for both READ and WRITE. You would think that should saturate the rather slow SCSI bus on the SE/30.
Click to expand...
It is not entirely clear to me that both the Cheetah and UltraII card, and in some tests even the Quantum drive, aren't maxing out the machine. I lack sufficient knowledge of the system and protocol to make an educated guess in this area. There may be other bottle necks than the SCSI bus and the device. Clearly both are capable of much higher speed transfers. The standard for the protocol would indicate a 5MB/s bus, and both devices can exceed that in faster systems, yet we don't see anything close to that in these results. Clearly smaller transfers require a higher overhead of both bus throughput and CPU processing. Again, I do not believe there is sufficient data to support the conclusions you are drawing.

Further benchmarks performed on spinning platter drives are available for viewing from this LEM SE/30 Page.
Click to expand...
After preparing these benchmarks, I am skeptical. For one thing, the article makes the assertion the SE/30 SCSI bus maximum is 4Mbps, yet provide data that it is operating at higher speeds (>14Mbps). Case is significant folks! Even if they meant the bus maxes out at 4MBps, their data doesn't get to 2MBps so I'm not sure where the 4 comes from. Additionally, they present data without specifying how it was gathered. That may simply be the result of the TimeDrive program they used to benchmark, in which case I argue the results are not very meaningful. I do not believe the results gathered there are comparable to the results gathered with Norton.

I personally use the lowest rated Kingston CF card and am very happy with it. I'm not out to run the fastest possible system, and I'm not out to convince you of anything at all. However, you have discounted informed reasoning as guesses, and misinterpreted gathered data to preserve your own preconceptions. If you really want to stick with a spinning platter or a SATA SSD or something else, I suggest you go for it. You don't need to justify or rationalize your decision to us.

#45 Wed, 13 Jan 2010 - 01:11 68kMLA
JFYI, I've updated the charts to include the SanDisk Ultra II and Cheetah drive on the G4 to get a feel for whether the SE/30 is maxing out the device or not.

The update includes the UltraII card both on the G4's PATA bus as a slave, and using the SCSI-IDE converter setup as in the SE/30.

http://synack.net/~bbraun/se30disks/

The UltraII card has a much higher top end than the Cheetah drive. The SCSI-IDE converter seems to max out at about the 5MB/s of narrow SCSI-1 even though it is supporting the SCSI-2 protocol. But all of the above exceed the maximum values we're getting out of the SE/30.

#46 Wed, 13 Jan 2010 - 01:40 68kMLA
I disagree with your interpretation... I'd really rather not dust off my old statistics book... I personally use the lowest rated Kingston CF card and am very happy with it. I'm not out to run the fastest possible system, and I'm not out to convince you of anything at all. However, you have discounted informed reasoning as guesses, and misinterpreted gathered data to preserve your own preconceptions. If you really want to stick with a spinning platter or a SATA SSD or something else, I suggest you go for it. You don't need to justify or rationalize your decision to us.
Click to expand...
There is no need to get so flustered over this. I apologize for having clearly upset you, but my intention was not to anger anyone. Such has never been my intention through all the years I have posted in this excellent forum.

Nevertheless, I stand by what I have said about the need for comparative benchmarks. I also stand by my thanks which I extended to you for providing such benchmark data. You did not have to do that, but you kindly did so. Indeed, I am truly humbled by the amount of time you clearly spend on that dedicated web page for the results. Again, I wish to thank you for that. No doubt others appreciate your efforts as well, even though they have not yet offered you their thanks yet.

But just because one or two among us is "satisfied with the performance of a low end CF card" does not mean we all must follow suit and be satisfied with that. I don't say this to upset you at all. I state it merely as a fact. Some are satisfied with the 16MHz processor in a stock SE/30. I have a 50MHz DiiMO 030 in mine. It's still an SE/30 running 68k software, upgraded yet in a largely stock condition. I simply say this to point out that the SE/30 allows for us to add various things to it to make it faster, and no, I am not talking about transforming it into a G4 or Intel Mac Mini either. I am talking about taking a stock Mac and upgrading it such that it can continue to operate as it was originally intended (to run 68k software natively on the CPU), but at faster speeds. That is what this thread is all about, but of course the "flash drive" discussion extends to Mac other than the SE/30 as well.

Such that we can all make "better informed decisions" I suggested some benchmarks in this thread. Then for whatever reason, the harsh words began. Perhaps some of you are hurt that I trust in benchmarks more than personal experience or educated guesses (however good those guesses may be). But I've not been attacked like this in other threads, so I am rather confused by all the harshness. Again, if I have offended, I apologize.

But I must stand by my original call for benchmarks, because such data is helpful in determining performance. And quite frankly, the more benchmarking data we can compile, the more easy it will be to select an appropriate flash drive solution for our vintage Mac, in accordance with our individual needs on performance.

Some seek the lowest cost solution. I seek a low cost solution, yet with the best performance possible. I personally want to know, without a shadow of a doubt, that the flash drive solution I am going to pay money for, for use in my vintage Mac, is going to be FASTER (in most situations/tests) than the 7200rpm spinning platter drive I currently have installed. The only way to know which is the best is to have a robust number of comparative benchmarks.

If such benchmarks were utterly irrelevant, then it would not have been necessary for Macworld/Mac User magazine to offer them all these years, nor would Macworld today need to use their Speedmark testing. The fact is, there are many among us, myself included, who still like to see benchmarks. Right or wrong, benchmark data makes us feel better. And I personally think it helps me make a more informed purchasing decision. My main reason for even participating in this thread is because I have been in the market for a flash drive solution for my SE/30 for years, but I've not purchase yet because I've been holding out for comparative benchmarks.

From reviewing your excellent benchmark results web page, I see that the SanDisk Ultra II card is very close to the 10krpm Cheetah, which is a very fast drive to have in an SE/30, and faster than the 7200rpm IBM DGHS server drive I currently use in my SE/30. So if I dare to "guess" here (based upon what I read in your benchmarks anyway), it would probably be that even a faster card like the Extreme III or IV series may not yield much greater performance than what your benchmarks have shown. Of course, we would need to conduct a benchmark with a faster card to know for certain. But as you point it, it may be that the faster cards would not exceed the numbers shown in your Speed Info results.

So again, thank you for testing. You were very kind in doing so. I greatly appreciate it. And if others who own flash drive solutions would like to add to the benchmarks, then we all benefit as a result.

THANK YOU!

#47 Wed, 13 Jan 2010 - 06:42 68kMLA
Thanks bbraun, these results are encouraging. I am in the process of procuring hardware for the conversion. I am a little put-off about getting one of the IDE-SCSI adapters that plug into the back of a CD drive since it seems it would be difficult to cleanly install it inside the case. Does anyone have some photos of their solution to installing one of these adapters?

#48 Wed, 13 Jan 2010 - 07:01 68kMLA
I also have a question along side tt. Do any of these flash drive solutions have an output for the LED?

As you know, some vintage Macs like the SE/30 have an LED on the front case that allows you to see drive access. I currently have that hooked up to my IBM DGHS drive and it works perfectly. It would be nice to have the LED also work with a flash drive solution.

#49 Wed, 13 Jan 2010 - 08:29 68kMLA
If you are using a SCSI -> IDE board then you can use an IDE -> CF board with an LED on it. Would have to remove the current LED and stick some wires on there but it is easy enough to do.

http://www.divshare.com/download/7966012-6b0

#50 Thu, 14 Jan 2010 - 00:12 68kMLA
My Acard AEC-7720U scsi to ide card has a connection that drives an LED. When I had this installed with a 3.5 inch IBM 7200 IDE drive in my SE/30, I had the drive mounted backwards in the drive sled so that the Acard and drive power and scsi connections were pointing towards the front of the case rather than the rear (stock orientation). This allowed me to use the stock LED (with short lead wires) built into the drive sled to connect to the Acard and this gave me the desired flashing of the drive light when it was in use. I don't think I have a photo of this rig as I too am working my way towards an SSD but in a slightly different route. My plan was to connect the Acard to a 4GB Transcend IDE flash drive that I picked up from Buy.com: http://www.buy.com/prod/transcend-4gb-flash-module-4-gb-ide-internal/q/loc/101/207652979.html.

The snag with this approach is that the Acard and the Transcend drive have the same connection on them (like what is on an IDE ribbon cable) so I needed to track down some sort of gender changer/coupler. My first attempt was with this http://cgi.ebay.com/40-Pin-3-5-IDE-Drive-Gender-Changer-IDC-Cable-Adaptor_W0QQitemZ360188509658QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL?hash=item53dce87dda#ht_1074wt_1051 however this straight pin approach doesn't line the pins up correctly. Next I tried this ribbon cable http://cgi.ebay.com/2-inches-40-Pin-Male-to-Male-IDE-Gender-Changer_W0QQitemZ280448912385QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item414c0ecc01#ht_500wt_1037. Going this route initially didn't work in that the SE/30 (stock configuration with 8MB RAM) didn't see the drive when I booted to a 7.01 floppy. The Acard was in the same configuration as it was when it was successfully working with a hard drive so I don't think that was the issue. Next I pulled the Transcend drive and installed in a Mac with an IDE connection, formatted the drive and copied a working 7.01 install onto the Transcend. I then installed the Transcend back into the SE/30 and booted to the Sys 7 floppy and now the drive appeared. I used system picker to bless 7.01 system on the Transcend drive and then booted successfully to the Transcend drive. The issue that remains is that after the system boots, it will lock up when I attempt to open any programs. From there I need to power off... That is were I left the project a few months ago. I'll have some free time in the next couple of weeks to fiddle with this again. If anyone has thoughts on what went sideways, I'd love to hear them.

Assuming I can get this working, I was planning on using 3M double sided tape to secure the Acard and Transcend drive to the drive sled after I coat the area under the pieces with electrical tape. One more thing...when the system was booting with the Transcend drive, the Acard LED was flashing..

#51 Thu, 14 Jan 2010 - 02:03 68kMLA
If anyone has thoughts on what went sideways, I'd love to hear them.
Click to expand...
I've found differences in behavior and performance depending on what does the partitioning and filesystem creation. The most reliable combination I found for 4GB and larger drives was to put them in an OSX machine, partition them using Disk Utility using an Apple Partition scheme, but only 1 partition of free space. Then take the drive and put it into the SE/30, and create a Mac Driver partition and Macintosh partition using a patched version of HD SC Setup 7.3.5 (patch mirrored here: http://synack.net/~bbraun/apple-hd-sc-setup-735-patch.hqx) to allow partitioning of non-Apple disks. Just remember, only 2GB or smaller partitions for maximum compatibility.

The next best solution I've encountered is Lido: http://www.euronet.nl/users/ernstoud/lido7.html

#52 Thu, 14 Jan 2010 - 02:27 68kMLA
The most reliable combination I found for 4GB and larger drives was to put them in an OSX machine, partition them using Disk Utility using an Apple Partition scheme, but only 1 partition of free space. Then take the drive and put it into the SE/30, and create a Mac Driver partition and Macintosh partition using a patched version of HD SC Setup 7.3.5
Click to expand...
Does this advice pertain to flash drive solutions? I ask because my IBM DGHS spinning platter drive is 4.5GB (i.e., "4GB and larger") and I formatted and partitioned it on my SE/30. I run System 6, 7 and 8 on it flawless. I have done so with the SE/30 in stock condition and upgraded. I too used the patched Apple HDSC app though.

In other words, I must assume the "reliability issue" being spoken of here is being directed merely at flash drive solutions for vintage Macs.

#53 Thu, 14 Jan 2010 - 02:59 68kMLA
Does this advice pertain to flash drive solutions? I ask because my IBM DGHS spinning platter drive is 4.5GB (i.e., "4GB and larger") and I formatted and partitioned it on my SE/30. I run System 6, 7 and 8 on it flawless. I have done so with the SE/30 in stock condition and upgraded. I too used the patched Apple HDSC app though.
Click to expand...
I did not intend to propose this as the one and only guaranteed to work in all cases and nothing else could possibly work solution. Merely what has worked most consistently for me in similar situations.

#54 Wed, 3 Feb 2010 - 10:45 68kMLA
Here are some actual numbers showing fast CF cards on a Quadra 605's SCSI bus. The differences in speed will be less noticeable on an SE/30. This Quadra is 40 MHz and it is running Mac OS 8.1. The cards are connected via an Addonics CF to IDE adapter which is then connected to an Acard AEC-7720U IDE to UltraSCSI adapter. The 16 gig CompactFlash card is a Transcend "133x" and the two 2 gig cards are both SanDisk Ultra II ("15 MB/s") cards. The base reference is a 5400 RPM 300 gig Hitachi HTS54323 2.5" SATA drive connected via an Acard ARS-2000SU SATA to UltraSCSI adapter / case.

Code: 
Test System:     	Disk speeds
MacBench Version:	MacBench® 4.0
Name:            	John Klos
Organization:    	
Test Date:       	Tuesday, February 2, 2010  7:25:59 AM

Quadra 605 (bbk) SATA-SCSI	Quadra 605 (bbk) 16 gig CF	Quadra 605 (bbk) 2 gig CF-SCSI	Quadra 605 (bbk) 2nd 2 gig CF-SCSI

Disk Tests:
Disk:	295	250	208	218	score
Publishing Disk:	204	160	152	157	score
Sequential Read 512:	554.57	424.10	379.80	372.71	kilobytes/sec
Sequential Read 1K:	905.70	688.57	628.56	618.76	kilobytes/sec
Sequential Read 32K:	3733.92	2976.15	2932.26	2929.68	kilobytes/sec
Sequential Read 64K:	3965.87	3148.29	3126.13	3121.35	kilobytes/sec
Sequential Read 128K:	4042.00	3229.06	3218.32	3212.37	kilobytes/sec
Sequential Read 1024K:	4255.29	3372.93	3359.72	3354.13	kilobytes/sec

Random Read 512:	63.85	268.64	251.88	248.18	kilobytes/sec
Random Read 1K: 	121.79	410.56	391.13	386.83	kilobytes/sec
Random Read 32K:	2129.38	2885.72	2846.58	2838.69	kilobytes/sec
Random Read 64K:	2849.16	3133.56	3112.95	3105.43	kilobytes/sec
Random Read 128K:	3500.34	3277.61	3267.98	3260.38	kilobytes/sec
Random Read 1024K:	4192.22	3398.23	3384.74	3377.70	kilobytes/sec

Sequential Write 512:	1093.36	972.48	956.25	993.21	kilobytes/sec
Sequential Write 1K:	1389.43	1208.63	1176.33	1243.98	kilobytes/sec
Sequential Write 32K:	2245.34	1826.06	1734.37	1904.70	kilobytes/sec
Sequential Write 64K:	2659.02	2167.95	2083.36	2218.39	kilobytes/sec
Sequential Write 128K:	2909.86	2361.84	2307.74	2408.79	kilobytes/sec
Sequential Write 1024K:	3257.64	2602.49	2532.98	2654.68	kilobytes/sec

Random Write 512:	249.00	102.68	32.15	36.21	kilobytes/sec
Random Write 1K:	467.74	278.42	63.92	72.11	kilobytes/sec
Random Write 32K:	2193.76	1693.77	243.38	282.05	kilobytes/sec
Random Write 64K:	2652.49	2079.39	473.03	527.24	kilobytes/sec
Random Write 128K:	2957.37	2258.68	970.47	980.85	kilobytes/sec
Random Write 1024K:	3291.23	2559.92	2032.18	2121.75	kilobytes/sec
#55 Wed, 3 Feb 2010 - 17:03 68kMLA
My SE/30's stock Apple drive was getting *very* noisy indeed, and a replacement 9gig IBM didn't improve things at all.

/Anders
Click to expand...
Just FYI -

One of the quietest narrow 50-pin SCSI drives that I've ever tested (and I've tested > 50 different models in the past) was Seagate ST318418N - 18gig, 7200 rpm. The other one was ST318417N, also quiet, just slightly slower. Both models are (were) relatively recent - I think I've tested them in 2007, on loan from the dealer. I kept the ST318418N and now it resides inside the overclocked Q605 @40 MHz. In fact, Q605's fan is louder than the drive.

So, Anders, just google a bit and I'm sure You'll be able to find one somewhere. At the end it's much more elegant solution than all that IDE/ATA/adapters etc. hassle.

Just make sure the boot partition is 2 gig or less and away you go :-)

ojfd

P.S. That Q605 mentioned above is a real workhorse - it runs Cubase 3.0.1 (not XT and not VST, just plain MIDI) with two Opcode's Studio 4's under MROS (no OMS) and it's timing is almost on par with ST1040 :)

#56 Tue, 2 Mar 2010 - 17:18 68kMLA
Thanks for the tips on this thread. I installed a 40GB Kingston SSD using the ACARD ARS-2000SUP. I had a hell of a time getting it to format in my SE/30, but based on this info formatted it on my MacBook Pro and then things went fine in System 7. The box is SO much quieter now.

#57 Tue, 2 Mar 2010 - 19:16 68kMLA
Hm. I spoke too soon. I can't seem to get the SSD to auto mount or to be the boot disk.

Any thoughts? Partitioning worked fine with Apple SC HD Setup (patched), and I could copy things to the drive, run them off of it, etc., but when I restart it's not mounted and I can't get it to boot. I have to open Apple SC HD Setup to get it to mount (by clicking update) or I can hit mount in Lido.

#58 Tue, 2 Mar 2010 - 21:39 68kMLA
The ARS-2000SUP has different firmware than the ARS-2000SU. I had a problem where my ARS-2000SU units would not auto boot on m68k Macs or on Amigas when they had the ARS-2000SUP firmware. I downloaded the latest ARS-2000SU (no P) firmware from the Acard site and flashed it (had to install Windows on a spare motherboard to do it... what a pain!), and everything auto booted just fine after that. I bet your issue is the same.

Separately, there are instances where the Mac SCSI driver which gets installed onto the drive isn't the right one. You may have both problems, but I'd recommend fixing the firmware problem before looking at the SCSI driver problem.

#59 Wed, 3 Mar 2010 - 17:41 68kMLA
Hmm. That means I'm going to need a SCSI card for my Windows box? Is that how the firmware update is done?

#60 Wed, 3 Mar 2010 - 19:55 68kMLA
At least temporarily. Acard has flash update programs for Mac OS 9 (maybe 8.6, too), but not for OS X. However, the program to update the SATA-SCSI devices is apparently Windows only. I only upgraded mine because my drive kept spinning down way too often and the newer firmware fixed that.

#61 Wed, 3 Mar 2010 - 23:15 68kMLA
Alright. Found an Adaptec 39160 at work and will give this a try.

#62 Sat, 6 Mar 2010 - 19:22 68kMLA
It worked! I can boot system 7.5 off of the ssd now. Fantastic. It's a bit pain having to have about 800000 partitions though. :p

#63 Sat, 6 Mar 2010 - 19:35 68kMLA
Glad to hear! That drove me crazy for weeks. By the time I thought I knew for certain what it was, the 30 day Windows eXtra Poop activation grace period was up, so I had to reinstall Windows to try the different firmware... Worth it, though!

#64 Mon, 8 Mar 2010 - 12:28 68kMLA
The base reference is a 5400 RPM 300 gig Hitachi HTS54323 2.5" SATA drive connected via an Acard ARS-2000SU SATA to UltraSCSI adapter / case.
Click to expand...
Hello! That's exactly the kind of thing I want. Where did you get it and how much did you pay?

#65 Mon, 8 Mar 2010 - 17:56 68kMLA
When I first bought them, they were around $150. For a while they weren't available for less than $200, but it seems the price is a little more reasonable now, back to what I paid:

http://www.google.com/products?q=ARS-2000SU&aq=f

I had a 250 gig 7200 RPM Seagate in one for a while but only because I wasn't using it for anything else. The drive eventually died; not sure if it was because of all the stops and starts (which is why I updated the firmware) or something else, but there's absolutely no speed advantage to a 7200 RPM over a 5400 RPM. On slower machines the rotational latency difference will easily get lost in the noise.

#66 Wed, 10 Mar 2010 - 11:54 68kMLA
250GB? Ayy, that's a lot of 2GB partitions...

Thanks for the info.

#67 Wed, 10 Mar 2010 - 18:28 68kMLA
Ha ha ha... If you're running Mac OS 8.1, you can have one partition at the beginning from which to boot, then use the rest as HFS+. On the other hand, I'm running NetBSD, so I just have a 500 meg Mac partition with System 7.6.1, a NetBSD FFS partition, and a swap partition. The drive now, BTW, is a 320 gig SATA. You can hardly find smaller drives these days.

#68 Tue, 16 Mar 2010 - 23:46 68kMLA
A few of the online retailers here list 4 and 8gb SATA SSDs, not cheap (certainly not for the amount of space) but not completely out of reach either. I would like to try this but I'm not sure I will ever get round to it...

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