Thread
Great. Here comes Syria.
It's interesting how our intention to NOT go in and flatten every village and hamlet in Iraq is being interpreted as evidence of the strength of Saddam's troops.
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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82377,00.html
Friday, March 28, 2003
WASHINGTON � Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld warned Syria on Friday to stop providing Iraq with supplies and weapons to use against coalition forces.
Fox News reported Thursday that Defense officials said they are seeing "military equipment" coming across the border from Syria to Iraq.
When pressed about what kind of equipment and how much, the officials said, "night vision goggles and other things," but would not elaborate on how much or how it is affecting the campaign.
Rumsfeld confirmed Friday that Syria was in fact engaging in such activities and sent out a stern warning.
"These deliveries pose a direct threat to the lives of coalition forces," Rumsfeld said at a Pentagon briefing. "We consider such trafficking as hostile acts and will hold the Syrian government responsible for the incidents."
When asked if the shipments from Syria were "state sponsored," Rumsfeld said he wouldn't answer because "it's an intelligence issue."
"They control their border," he added. "We're hoping that kind of thing doesn't happen."
Syria has effectively opened its borders for volunteers trying to get into Iraq to fight for Saddam Hussein's regime, as well as refugees trying to escape, U.S. government officials confirmed to Fox News Friday.
Intelligence reports began trickling in Tuesday night about the border activity.
By contrast, officials say the Turkish, Iranian, Jordanian and Saudi Arabian borders were closed and more carefully watched. Officials say the U.S. government's concerns have been communicated to the Syrian government, though exactly how is unclear.
The United States says Russia, too, has provided Iraq with night-vision goggles, as well as electronic jamming equipment that could alter the path of U.S. bombs and aircraft.
Leaders of the terrorist group, Hamas, in the West Bank have distributed pamphlets and made public demands for Iraq's neighbors -- Jordan and Saudi Arabia -- to open their borders so volunteers can head for Baghdad. Sources say Hezbollah fighters from another terrorist organization are also en route from Lebanon to Iraq.
Saddam's regime has long rewarded and supported Palestinian homicide bombers with money for the families of victims.
U.S. control of western Iraq is expected to neutralize the threat, if any, these volunteers might present to coalition efforts.
During a U.S. Central Command briefing Friday, Brig. Gen. Vince Brooks was asked what the reports of Iraqi ex-patriots means for the war effort.
"We've seen this kind of example before," Brooks said, referring to Afghanistan. "Some are very interested in deliberation that's ongoing � we have not had any encounters and it has not posed a problem to date."
During diplomatic wrangling within the U.N. Security Council in the past few months, Syria unabashedly opposed any sort of military action in Iraq.
Syria "has been the major conduit for illegal military equipment" into Iraq, Fox News foreign affairs analyst Marc Ginsberg, said Thursday.
Ginsberg, a former U.N. ambassador to Morocco, said Syria has been making money off the oil it allows Iraq to illegally sell on the black market.
On Thursday, Syrian mufti Sheikh Ahmad Kaftaro, the country's top Muslim religious authority, called for homicide bombings against coalition forces in Iraq, reported Agence France Press.
"I call on Muslims everywhere to use all means possible to thwart the aggression, including martyr operations against the belligerent American, British and Zionist invaders," he said in a statement.
"Resistance to the belligerent invaders is an obligation for all Muslims, starting with (those in) Iraq."
U.S. officials say they are particularly concerned about the increasingly anti-American and anti-British tone in Syrian government-controlled press.
Officials in the information division of the Syrian Foreign Ministry are quoted in newspapers earlier this week as calling the United States the "the empire of murder and destruction."
AFP reports that this is the first time a senior Syrian religious figure has called for homicide attacks against coalition troops in Iraq. Syria views homicide attacks by Palestinians against Israel as a legitimate "resistance to occupation."
Kaftaro called on Muslims everywhere to boycott U.S. and British products, as well as goods from countries supporting the coalition war effort. He also urged "free citizens" all over the world to demonstrate, strike and disrupt airports and ports and other facilities that support the war effort in Iraq.
Separately, Syrian President Bashar al-Assad predicted the United States and Britain would never be able to bring Iraq under their full control and would face "popular Arab resistance," in an interview published on Thursday in Lebanese daily As-Safir.
The Washington Post on Thursday reported that some citizens in Saudi Arabia, Syria and Lebanon said they wanted to take up arms for Saddam. Even newspapers that in the days leading up to the war never dared to mention the Iraqi dictator's name now appear to be praising his ability to fight back against coalition forces.
"Six days have passed and not one Iraqi city has fallen to the invaders," wrote Mahmoud Abdel Moneim, a columnist for the al-Ahram daily newspaper in Cairo, Egypt.
"Saddam Hussein hasn't fled, and he hasn't given in. The whole world mocks the allies and their weapons and their numbers, which are incapable of achieving any victory over Iraqi forces who are supported by no one."
A commentary in the Tishrin daily in Syria on Thursday indicated that -- in the words of a writer for the Syrian Web site -- "there is a complete conviction in the world that what is going in Iraq is more than an ordinary aggression and the American strategy in targeting the Iraqi people, land and resources."
The daily stressed that the "U.S. war machine doesn't hesitate to target the Iraqi civilians with round the clock missiles and bombs in the most brutal raids ever in history particularly on Baghdad."
The AlThawra daily indicated that the Iraqi people have proven they are stronger than all the military, and the alBaath daily pointed out the amazing popular resistance of the Iraqi people will be an important factor in the Arab world.
Fox News' Bret Baier, Major Garrett, Carl Cameron and Liza Porteus contributed to this report.
__________________________________________________ ___
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82377,00.html
Friday, March 28, 2003
WASHINGTON � Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld warned Syria on Friday to stop providing Iraq with supplies and weapons to use against coalition forces.
Fox News reported Thursday that Defense officials said they are seeing "military equipment" coming across the border from Syria to Iraq.
When pressed about what kind of equipment and how much, the officials said, "night vision goggles and other things," but would not elaborate on how much or how it is affecting the campaign.
Rumsfeld confirmed Friday that Syria was in fact engaging in such activities and sent out a stern warning.
"These deliveries pose a direct threat to the lives of coalition forces," Rumsfeld said at a Pentagon briefing. "We consider such trafficking as hostile acts and will hold the Syrian government responsible for the incidents."
When asked if the shipments from Syria were "state sponsored," Rumsfeld said he wouldn't answer because "it's an intelligence issue."
"They control their border," he added. "We're hoping that kind of thing doesn't happen."
Syria has effectively opened its borders for volunteers trying to get into Iraq to fight for Saddam Hussein's regime, as well as refugees trying to escape, U.S. government officials confirmed to Fox News Friday.
Intelligence reports began trickling in Tuesday night about the border activity.
By contrast, officials say the Turkish, Iranian, Jordanian and Saudi Arabian borders were closed and more carefully watched. Officials say the U.S. government's concerns have been communicated to the Syrian government, though exactly how is unclear.
The United States says Russia, too, has provided Iraq with night-vision goggles, as well as electronic jamming equipment that could alter the path of U.S. bombs and aircraft.
Leaders of the terrorist group, Hamas, in the West Bank have distributed pamphlets and made public demands for Iraq's neighbors -- Jordan and Saudi Arabia -- to open their borders so volunteers can head for Baghdad. Sources say Hezbollah fighters from another terrorist organization are also en route from Lebanon to Iraq.
Saddam's regime has long rewarded and supported Palestinian homicide bombers with money for the families of victims.
U.S. control of western Iraq is expected to neutralize the threat, if any, these volunteers might present to coalition efforts.
During a U.S. Central Command briefing Friday, Brig. Gen. Vince Brooks was asked what the reports of Iraqi ex-patriots means for the war effort.
"We've seen this kind of example before," Brooks said, referring to Afghanistan. "Some are very interested in deliberation that's ongoing � we have not had any encounters and it has not posed a problem to date."
During diplomatic wrangling within the U.N. Security Council in the past few months, Syria unabashedly opposed any sort of military action in Iraq.
Syria "has been the major conduit for illegal military equipment" into Iraq, Fox News foreign affairs analyst Marc Ginsberg, said Thursday.
Ginsberg, a former U.N. ambassador to Morocco, said Syria has been making money off the oil it allows Iraq to illegally sell on the black market.
On Thursday, Syrian mufti Sheikh Ahmad Kaftaro, the country's top Muslim religious authority, called for homicide bombings against coalition forces in Iraq, reported Agence France Press.
"I call on Muslims everywhere to use all means possible to thwart the aggression, including martyr operations against the belligerent American, British and Zionist invaders," he said in a statement.
"Resistance to the belligerent invaders is an obligation for all Muslims, starting with (those in) Iraq."
U.S. officials say they are particularly concerned about the increasingly anti-American and anti-British tone in Syrian government-controlled press.
Officials in the information division of the Syrian Foreign Ministry are quoted in newspapers earlier this week as calling the United States the "the empire of murder and destruction."
AFP reports that this is the first time a senior Syrian religious figure has called for homicide attacks against coalition troops in Iraq. Syria views homicide attacks by Palestinians against Israel as a legitimate "resistance to occupation."
Kaftaro called on Muslims everywhere to boycott U.S. and British products, as well as goods from countries supporting the coalition war effort. He also urged "free citizens" all over the world to demonstrate, strike and disrupt airports and ports and other facilities that support the war effort in Iraq.
Separately, Syrian President Bashar al-Assad predicted the United States and Britain would never be able to bring Iraq under their full control and would face "popular Arab resistance," in an interview published on Thursday in Lebanese daily As-Safir.
The Washington Post on Thursday reported that some citizens in Saudi Arabia, Syria and Lebanon said they wanted to take up arms for Saddam. Even newspapers that in the days leading up to the war never dared to mention the Iraqi dictator's name now appear to be praising his ability to fight back against coalition forces.
"Six days have passed and not one Iraqi city has fallen to the invaders," wrote Mahmoud Abdel Moneim, a columnist for the al-Ahram daily newspaper in Cairo, Egypt.
"Saddam Hussein hasn't fled, and he hasn't given in. The whole world mocks the allies and their weapons and their numbers, which are incapable of achieving any victory over Iraqi forces who are supported by no one."
A commentary in the Tishrin daily in Syria on Thursday indicated that -- in the words of a writer for the Syrian Web site -- "there is a complete conviction in the world that what is going in Iraq is more than an ordinary aggression and the American strategy in targeting the Iraqi people, land and resources."
The daily stressed that the "U.S. war machine doesn't hesitate to target the Iraqi civilians with round the clock missiles and bombs in the most brutal raids ever in history particularly on Baghdad."
The AlThawra daily indicated that the Iraqi people have proven they are stronger than all the military, and the alBaath daily pointed out the amazing popular resistance of the Iraqi people will be an important factor in the Arab world.
Fox News' Bret Baier, Major Garrett, Carl Cameron and Liza Porteus contributed to this report.
Hm, interesting.
Should we infer anything that critics predicted that moving on to Syria would be the next step in the neo-conservative crusade that is going on under the guise of "Liberation"?
How long before Operation Iranian Smackdown starts?
Should we infer anything that critics predicted that moving on to Syria would be the next step in the neo-conservative crusade that is going on under the guise of "Liberation"?
How long before Operation Iranian Smackdown starts?
I guess I just wonder at Syria's thinking here. Clearly they're stating which side of this conflict they're on (which has never really been a secret, but still...). Are they engaging now because they assume they'll be next, and they may as well go down fighting? Do they see joining the Iraqis at this point their best chance to attack coalition forces while those forces are concentrating elsewhere?
It just seems like a troubling development. I assume most of these troops will be killed before they have a chance to join up with Iraqi forces, but who knows?
It just seems like a troubling development. I assume most of these troops will be killed before they have a chance to join up with Iraqi forces, but who knows?
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Originally posted by palmberg: I guess I just wonder at Syria's thinking here. Clearly they're stating which side of this conflict they're on (which has never really been a secret, but still...). Are they engaging now because they assume they'll be next, and they may as well go down fighting? Do they see joining the Iraqis at this point their best chance to attack coalition forces while those forces are concentrating elsewhere? It just seems like a troubling development. I assume most of these troops will be killed before they have a chance to join up with Iraqi forces, but who knows? |
So much for the assumptions that all these Arab states secretly supported our plan despite their public protestations.
Now there are reports that Rumsfeld is accussing Iran of getting involved.
Not to mention how we might see Hezbollah or Hamas get involved. Is Islamic Jihad still operating in Egypt? Now what if Saudis start crossing over the border to get in on the action of "fighting the Great Satan"?
Some analysts wonder whether we have enough force in place right now to take Bagdad effectively. I'm not sure about that, but I'm confident saying we don't have the force in place to fight on all these fronts if geurilla wars stars spilling over the borders.
Take. Bagdad. Now.
Its actually worse than that. If you recall, back in early February there were reports that Iraq was moving chemical weapons to Lebanon and Syria. Debka has some pretty scary reports today. Some may suggest that Debka is biased, and clearly there is a strong Israeli bias. However it is run by former Economist reporters and the Economist is one of the more reputable journals. A lot of other new agencies get their info from Debka. Note that to get most of the Debka info you have to subscribe, which costs a fair bit of money. However they have a few public headlines on their main page.
www.debka.com
Israel elevates first-aid Magen David alert for possible chemical attack
US defense secretary warns Syrian action in sending military equipment to Iraq is seen as hostile act and Syria may be viewed as combatant. Rumsfeld also warns Iran against interfering in war in Iraq
DEBKAfile reports from US intelligence sources that Iraq has moved chemical and biological weapons to within missile-striking distance of Israel in western Iraq despite US-UK presence in region. Some of the WMD was taken out of hiding-places in Syria
Thursday several hundred Lebanese Hizballah headed across Syrian-Iraqi border to join Syrian-sponsored Palestinian volunteer movement for Saddam?s army
www.debka.com
Israel elevates first-aid Magen David alert for possible chemical attack
US defense secretary warns Syrian action in sending military equipment to Iraq is seen as hostile act and Syria may be viewed as combatant. Rumsfeld also warns Iran against interfering in war in Iraq
DEBKAfile reports from US intelligence sources that Iraq has moved chemical and biological weapons to within missile-striking distance of Israel in western Iraq despite US-UK presence in region. Some of the WMD was taken out of hiding-places in Syria
Thursday several hundred Lebanese Hizballah headed across Syrian-Iraqi border to join Syrian-sponsored Palestinian volunteer movement for Saddam?s army
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Originally posted by clarkgoble: Its actually worse than that. If you recall, back in early February there were reports that Iraq was moving chemical weapons to Lebanon and Syria. Debka has some pretty scary reports today. Some may suggest that Debka is biased, and clearly there is a strong Israeli bias. However it is run by former Economist reporters and the Economist is one of the more reputable journals. A lot of other new agencies get their info from Debka. Note that to get most of the Debka info you have to subscribe, which costs a fair bit of money. However they have a few public headlines on their main page. www.debka.com Israel elevates first-aid Magen David alert for possible chemical attack US defense secretary warns Syrian action in sending military equipment to Iraq is seen as hostile act and Syria may be viewed as combatant. Rumsfeld also warns Iran against interfering in war in Iraq DEBKAfile reports from US intelligence sources that Iraq has moved chemical and biological weapons to within missile-striking distance of Israel in western Iraq despite US-UK presence in region. Some of the WMD was taken out of hiding-places in Syria Thursday several hundred Lebanese Hizballah headed across Syrian-Iraqi border to join Syrian-sponsored Palestinian volunteer movement for Saddam?s army |
Isn't this exactly the fantasy scenario in the article of the "Practive to Deceive" thread??
I was under the impression that you were critical of that assessment, clark. Is this not part of the plan or part of it?
I was for a limited attack on Iraq, but always had misgivings. I think that having the entire mideast erupt in war would be bad - horrible even. Cataclysmic. It would probably lead to nuclear war.
However I do think that Syria, Iraq, and Lebannon and perhaps other sympathetic forces, might use this to end the Israeli issue once and for all.
I think that while the war was justified, that Bush's public relations in the world forum was horrible and incompetent. A lot of the blame goes back to that and his relative provincialism. That heavens for Blair for what little was done.
But I *don't* want Israel to become involved.
However I do think that Syria, Iraq, and Lebannon and perhaps other sympathetic forces, might use this to end the Israeli issue once and for all.
I think that while the war was justified, that Bush's public relations in the world forum was horrible and incompetent. A lot of the blame goes back to that and his relative provincialism. That heavens for Blair for what little was done.
But I *don't* want Israel to become involved.
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Originally posted by clarkgoble: I was for a limited attack on Iraq, but always had misgivings. I think that having the entire mideast erupt in war would be bad - horrible even. Cataclysmic. It would probably lead to nuclear war. However I do think that Syria, Iraq, and Lebannon and perhaps other sympathetic forces, might use this to end the Israeli issue once and for all. I think that while the war was justified, that Bush's public relations in the world forum was horrible and incompetent. A lot of the blame goes back to that and his relative provincialism. That heavens for Blair for what little was done. But I *don't* want Israel to become involved. |
Well, of all your very intelligent posts this is one where I can gladly agree without caveat
That feels good.If Israel gets involved, I'm heading for Iceland
By the by, how are things in The Happy Valley
Happy Valley is about the same as always. Weird weather this week though. It was 80 a few days ago and is snowing right now. But at least we are getting some much needed precipitation.
BTW - where in Lousiana are you? I was on a LDS mission in Baton Rouge (mainly the various ghettos)
BTW - where in Lousiana are you? I was on a LDS mission in Baton Rouge (mainly the various ghettos)
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Originally posted by clarkgoble: Happy Valley is about the same as always. Weird weather this week though. It was 80 a few days ago and is snowing right now. But at least we are getting some much needed precipitation. BTW - where in Lousiana are you? I was on a LDS mission in Baton Rouge (mainly the various ghettos) |
Oops, I'm in Los Angeles but my family is mostly from Utah and I lived there for years. Provo is a nice town. A little too "yuppie" for me, but hey, I went to USU so you know I'm one of those weirdos
Well I'm technically a Canadian from Nova Scotia, so take it for what it is worth. Hah LA as in Los Angeles and not Lousiana. My bad.
Back to the topic at hand though. This is very scary and probably explains why Sadaam has only been lobbing SCUD and other missiles at Kuwait and not Israel. I'll give Sadaam this. He's been playing his hand very well.
All of this, including Syrian support for resolution 1441 may all be a plan culminating in Israel. It is hard to say right now. If a western front opens up though with the current Israeli mindset then we really are in trouble.
We also should remember that Syria also has chemical weapons and most likely a biological program. Recall the Syria refused to sign the chemical weapons treaty. Syria reportedly has SCUDS and more modern missiles with chemical warheads. There is one interesting site, albeit unfortunately a bit of an apologist for Israel.
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_c...3&x_article=443
Back to the topic at hand though. This is very scary and probably explains why Sadaam has only been lobbing SCUD and other missiles at Kuwait and not Israel. I'll give Sadaam this. He's been playing his hand very well.
All of this, including Syrian support for resolution 1441 may all be a plan culminating in Israel. It is hard to say right now. If a western front opens up though with the current Israeli mindset then we really are in trouble.
We also should remember that Syria also has chemical weapons and most likely a biological program. Recall the Syria refused to sign the chemical weapons treaty. Syria reportedly has SCUDS and more modern missiles with chemical warheads. There is one interesting site, albeit unfortunately a bit of an apologist for Israel.
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_c...3&x_article=443
One extra bit of news. This once again an excerpt from Debka.
US special forces blew up the Iraqi-Syrian pipeline that was carrying illegal oil exports from Mosul and Kirkuk in the north to the Syrian Mediterranean oil terminal on the Banias for sale overseas, as well as the Syrian-Iraq railroad that was Saddam s only route for importing war supplies. Nonetheless, Syrian president Basher Assad kept the smuggling routes running with the help of giant tanker trucks prepared in advance; weapons and arms components are reaching Iraq by means of trucks and other vehicles impounded by Syrian troops.
Assad also roped in his military intelligence and transport commands to enlist and move thousands of volunteers from Palestinian camps in Lebanon and Syria across the border to Baghdad in hired buses and trucks. They are given weapons and their families get cash payments. Assad is also forcing Damascus-based Palestinian groups Hamas, Jihad Islami, Jibril, Popular Front etc. - to enlist their followers for Saddam s war against the Americans.
Thursday, hundreds of Lebanese Hizballah fighters were taken in convoy to Iraq to join Saddam s army in an operation organized by Syria.
Last week, an American F-15 warplane fired a rocket at a Syrian bus killing five passengers, who turned out to be Palestinian volunteers on their way to Baghdad. Syria complained and Washington apologized, but both knew
that the American rocket was a last warning to the Syrian president to halt his aid to Saddam Hussein. That warning was not heeded.
Not everything these guys publish pans out. But the above was quite interesting and scary.
US special forces blew up the Iraqi-Syrian pipeline that was carrying illegal oil exports from Mosul and Kirkuk in the north to the Syrian Mediterranean oil terminal on the Banias for sale overseas, as well as the Syrian-Iraq railroad that was Saddam s only route for importing war supplies. Nonetheless, Syrian president Basher Assad kept the smuggling routes running with the help of giant tanker trucks prepared in advance; weapons and arms components are reaching Iraq by means of trucks and other vehicles impounded by Syrian troops.
Assad also roped in his military intelligence and transport commands to enlist and move thousands of volunteers from Palestinian camps in Lebanon and Syria across the border to Baghdad in hired buses and trucks. They are given weapons and their families get cash payments. Assad is also forcing Damascus-based Palestinian groups Hamas, Jihad Islami, Jibril, Popular Front etc. - to enlist their followers for Saddam s war against the Americans.
Thursday, hundreds of Lebanese Hizballah fighters were taken in convoy to Iraq to join Saddam s army in an operation organized by Syria.
Last week, an American F-15 warplane fired a rocket at a Syrian bus killing five passengers, who turned out to be Palestinian volunteers on their way to Baghdad. Syria complained and Washington apologized, but both knew
that the American rocket was a last warning to the Syrian president to halt his aid to Saddam Hussein. That warning was not heeded.
Not everything these guys publish pans out. But the above was quite interesting and scary.
You aren't kidding it's scary!
Oh man, my spidey sense is going nuts since this thing started....
If this is enough justification to attack Syria, then Japan had enough justification to bomb Pearl Harbor. We were sending/selling weapons to the Chinese, remember?
I have given my grudging support to the war (with deep misgivings). The last thing I want would be to have this thing escalate. *shudders*
Would somebody tie up Rumsfeld and throw him in to a closet with a sock in his mouth till this war is over? Pretty please.The man strikes me as the big talking bully.
God, I just realized that we have a fraternity in the White House. Bush is the popular kid, Rumsfeld is the bully, Ashcroft is the hyper religious guy and the control freak rolled in to one, and Powell is the guy they tolerate but don't really like. All we're missing is the keggar... Wait a minute, his daughters supply those! 
Almost too true to be funny. Almost.
BlackGriffen
I have given my grudging support to the war (with deep misgivings). The last thing I want would be to have this thing escalate. *shudders*
Would somebody tie up Rumsfeld and throw him in to a closet with a sock in his mouth till this war is over? Pretty please.The man strikes me as the big talking bully.
God, I just realized that we have a fraternity in the White House. Bush is the popular kid, Rumsfeld is the bully, Ashcroft is the hyper religious guy and the control freak rolled in to one, and Powell is the guy they tolerate but don't really like. All we're missing is the keggar... Wait a minute, his daughters supply those!
Almost too true to be funny. Almost.BlackGriffen
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Originally posted by clarkgoble: One extra bit of news. This once again an excerpt from Debka. ... Not everything these guys publish pans out. But the above was quite interesting and scary. |
Damascus is the (second?) oldest living city on Earth. Here's to hoping she continues to be so in the future...
BlackGriffen
It isn't justification to attack Syria. However we will almost certainly start targeting trucks coming from Jordan or Syria into Iraq.
The issue isn't whether we'd extend the war to Syria. That would be the height of stategic and tactical stupidity. Rather the issue is the degree of complicity between Iraq and Syria. It may well be that all of this is part of a further plan to attack Israel after they obtain enough public support. Further it is in Iraq's interest, not the US, to open a western front. That would have the effect of flanking the US. Further it would bring more troops to play - far more than American forces could handle. That would in turn result in the US having to change its rules of engagement dramatically.
If one thing is becoming clear it is that Iraq is playing a very intelligent game. Further they do not plan on rolling over. Thus they are playing to win. So simply ask yourself what they need to do strategically to win. . . Further ask yourself why Israel has been left alone so long.
The gamble with Iraq really was that it would take place fast enough and with relatively little Iraqi opposition. I think we really did expect more surrenders and support. Now the war is dragging on in a guerilla warfare. Further the world opinion, already against the US, is getting more harsh. This is the perfect opportunity to drive the US out and resolve the problem of Israel (from the arab perspective).
The issue isn't whether we'd extend the war to Syria. That would be the height of stategic and tactical stupidity. Rather the issue is the degree of complicity between Iraq and Syria. It may well be that all of this is part of a further plan to attack Israel after they obtain enough public support. Further it is in Iraq's interest, not the US, to open a western front. That would have the effect of flanking the US. Further it would bring more troops to play - far more than American forces could handle. That would in turn result in the US having to change its rules of engagement dramatically.
If one thing is becoming clear it is that Iraq is playing a very intelligent game. Further they do not plan on rolling over. Thus they are playing to win. So simply ask yourself what they need to do strategically to win. . . Further ask yourself why Israel has been left alone so long.
The gamble with Iraq really was that it would take place fast enough and with relatively little Iraqi opposition. I think we really did expect more surrenders and support. Now the war is dragging on in a guerilla warfare. Further the world opinion, already against the US, is getting more harsh. This is the perfect opportunity to drive the US out and resolve the problem of Israel (from the arab perspective).
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Originally posted by BlackGriffen: God, I just realized that we have a fraternity in the White House. Bush is the popular kid, Rumsfeld is the bully, Ashcroft is the hyper religious guy and the control freak rolled in to one, and Powell is the guy they tolerate but don't really like. All we're missing is the keggar... Wait a minute, his daughters supply those! Almost too true to be funny.
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And the liberals are the kids that got picked on since they were children, always crying and complaining to the teacher when they didn't get their way.
In high school, the liberals were the ones whose parents called the principle and petitioned the school board when their kids were cut from athletic teams or spent the season(s) riding the bench.
In college, the liberals were the ones who couldn't get into a fraternity (or sorority), despite many attempts at rushing. They would then seek comfort in the school newspaper organization, where they'd be surrounded by others just like them. There they would band together and write bad stories about those popular folks on campus in a last-ditch attempt to salvage some self-respect.
Almost too true to be funny.
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Originally posted by clarkgoble: If one thing is becoming clear it is that Iraq is playing a very intelligent game. Further they do not plan on rolling over. Thus they are playing to win. So simply ask yourself what they need to do strategically to win. . . Further ask yourself why Israel has been left alone so long. |
In order for Iraq to survive to any degree I think two things would have to happen:
- they drag out the war for a few months in urban combat, inflicting casualties.
- increase in civilian casualties
- they DON"T use WMDs. If they start using mustard or sarin gas they will lose all political momentum for their cause in the world.
So, presuming that the Iraqi leadership doesn't 'crumble from within' like the US forces are praying for, I can't really see a happy ending for this war. Its just going to cause more death and destruction for everyone and plunge the entire region into even more instability.
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Originally posted by spacefreak: And the liberals are the kids that got picked on since they were children, always crying and complaining to the teacher when they didn't get their way. In high school, the liberals were the ones whose parents called the principle and petitioned the school board when their kids were cut from athletic teams or spent the season(s) riding the bench. In college, the liberals were the ones who couldn't get into a fraternity (or sorority), despite many attempts at rushing. They would then seek comfort in the school newspaper organization, where they'd be surrounded by others just like them. There they would band together and write bad stories about those popular folks on campus in a last-ditch attempt to salvage some self-respect. |
I'm beginning to fear for your sanity. I'm sure it's a comforting caricature that you repeat to yourself over and over to feel superior to those who disagree with you, but don't forget it's just a caricature and a product of your fevered imagination.
Good thing I can rest easy knowing that all conservatives are beady-eyed, sausage-fingered, inbred redneck trailer trash that can't stop humping Jesus long enough to think for themselves
Aren't imaginary worlds fun??
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Originally posted by thunderous_funker: .... Good thing I can rest easy knowing that all conservatives are beady-eyed, sausage-fingered, inbred redneck trailer trash that can't stop humping Jesus long enough to think for themselves Aren't imaginary worlds fun?? |
Ahh I see you have visited his tornado death trap trailer park, did he invite you over for tea perhaps?
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Originally posted by thunderous_funker: I'm beginning to fear for your sanity. I'm sure it's a comforting caricature that you repeat to yourself over and over to feel superior to those who disagree with you, but don't forget it's just a caricature and a product of your fevered imagination. |
Just replying to a similar caricature.
If you are so against the premise, why wouldn't you pipe up and voice displeasure with the initial post?
Is it possible for a thread to go very far without people making snide comments and silly extreme ad homen attacks and characatures?
Sometimes I wonder.
Just a hint to everyone (on all sides) who do this. Typically it makes others feel that you have no real argument for your position and thus can only react emotionally.
Sometimes I wonder.
Just a hint to everyone (on all sides) who do this. Typically it makes others feel that you have no real argument for your position and thus can only react emotionally.
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Originally posted by clarkgoble: Typically it makes others feel that you have no real argument for your position and thus can only react emotionally. |
Correct.
It's ironic that certain parties allow this caricaturization to go on UNTIL a disagreeable caricaturization arises.
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Originally posted by spacefreak: Just replying to a similar caricature. If you are so against the premise, why wouldn't you pipe up and voice displeasure with the initial post? |
Are you saying your swipe at "liberals" is even remotely measured against the comments BlackGriffen made about a White House Frat?
He made a very specific parody of specific people that was fairly harmless. You lashed out at an imaginary universe of people called "liberals" insulting not only them but their families and suggesting they lived lives of failure and futility.
Why not respond with a joke about Daschle being the obnoxious loser who isn't even cool enough to get in the Frat? Or that Al Gore was the geek who writes everyone's term papers cuz he thinks they like him but they actually make fun of him behind his back? Or that Ralph Nader was the obnoxious tattle-tale who is always informing the Uptight Dean (played by Larry Miller) of the Frat's looney antics? Or Clinton being the fat horn-dog who peeps into some chick's dorm room on a ladder and smashes beer cans on his forehead?
I'm sure you're imaginitive enough to think up some funny parodies of leaders of the opposition.
Hell, you could have even made fun of BG or myself specifically. I'm sure there's plenty of material from my posts for making a pretty funny lampoon of me.
I'm imagining you watching SNL and every time someone does a Bush joke you throw a can of Old Milwaukee (that's popular in the trailer park isn't it
) at the TV and shouting at your sister-wife to fetch yer shotgun so you can go lynch some hippies.Hell, if I wasn't busy smoking hashish, indoctrinated children in the ways of our glorious commie tradition and wearing women's underwear I'll come over there and kick yer arse!!
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Originally posted by thunderous_funker: I'll come over there and kick yer arse |
And here I stood, thinking you were against violence.
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Originally posted by spacefreak: I thought you were against violence. |
Must have me confused with somone else (or your own imagination
).I also played football, basketball, ran track and cross country, sang in the choir, did theater, state debate champ and came so close to accepting an Air Force ROTC scholarship to college that I still wake up in a cold sweat from time to time wondering what might have happened if I had signed that peice of paper.
Sorry you didn't think BG's lampoon was funny. I hope you see why I thought your response was pretty uncalled for.
Wanna go shoot some rats at the dump and make up?
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Originally posted by spacefreak: Just replying to a similar caricature. If you are so against the premise, why wouldn't you pipe up and voice displeasure with the initial post? |
Actually I caricatured specific individuals and the current specific situation. Note, for instance, that Powell was the guy the frat boys didn't like, not the guy nobody liked.
It was a way of letting out pent up frustrations by letting them go on absent third parties who happen to be famous. You tried to make it personal. Too bad for you I'm not a liberal.
I think neither with just my wallet, nor with just my heart, nor a bible, nor even any leader. I give my allegience to none but my friends, my family, and all of humanity; indeed to Life itself. D'oh! I just realized that I'm accidentally hijacking this thread with a side-rant. I'll leave what's there, though, because I find it comforting even as the word flow through my fingers to the net. Back on topic:
How do you suppose the world would react to a widening of the war? Would they say, "They made there bed, let them sleep in it." Would they decide that the devil they know is better than the devil they don't and side with the US?
BlackGriffen
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Originally posted by thunderous_funker: If Israel gets involved, I'm heading for Iceland |
You are welcome
But I have to tell you that most of us are trying to find ways of getting out of here
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Originally posted by thunderous_funker: Or Clinton being the fat horn-dog who peeps into some chick's dorm room on a ladder and smashes beer cans on his forehead? |
Great post, TF! Add to that the bitchy, controlling girlfriend Hillary, and Clinton trying to hang out on campus after graduation.
Why, we've got a regular Washington DCU going up there!
BG
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Originally posted by thunderous_funker: Wanna go shoot some rats at the dump and make up? |
No can do. Minicamp starts in 5 weeks. The last thing I need is for my name to be associated with any type of weapon in the press. Let Randy and the Vikes ride that train right back to the cellar. We want the division (at least).
Thanks for the offer.